Why No Katrina Stories From Iowa?
by Big Dog on Jun 13, 2008 at 14:06 Political
There is terrible flooding in Cedar Rapids Iowa and Des Moines is under a voluntary evacuation order as rivers swell and rise to the tops of levees. Cedar Rapids is under water and 15 people have died as a result of the flooding. Of course this story has been in the news but I can’t help but wondering where all the network trailers are. I can’t help wondering where FEMA is and where are all the protesters demonstrating against perceived government inaction on this one?
Also, where are all the dead bodies floating around while hoodlums roam the streets shooting at people and looting stores?
What is it about this storm that is at least as bad, if not worse, than Katrina that has left us without stories of devastation caused by the government’s failure to swoop in and help people? Why don’t we have music stars on TV holding a telethon to raise money while they proclaim that George Bush hates white people?
Why is it that teen aged boys, members of the Boy Scouts, were able to respond immediately to render first aid to the injured and dig out those trapped in the rubble when adults in New Orleans seemed incapable of helping themselves?
Perhaps this goes back to the thoughts I had about dependence on government. Those in New Orleans have ridden the back of government programs for so long they did not know how to care for themselves. The leadership they needed from state and local politicians was non existent with the governor crying and the mayor lying in the fetal position sucking his thumb on the upper floors of a hotel. The people were ill prepared because their leadership was ill prepared.
Certainly there was blame at the federal level and things could have run more smoothly but there is no battalion of federal employees traipsing around Iowa and they seem to be surviving.
It all comes down to people taking responsibility for one’s own life and helping others in need.
My prayers are with those folks in Iowa affected by this terrible storm. Thanks goodness they had the ability to fend for themselves or the death toll could have been much higher.
Tags: cedar rapids ♦ fema ♦ floods ♦ iowa ♦ katrina ♦ new orleans
June 13th, 2008 at 14:15
Valid point and I agree.
June 13th, 2008 at 15:04
I was unaware that 32,000 square miles were devastated and 2+ million displaced by the floods in the midwest. Oh, they weren’t. Never mind.
Iowa? I lived in North Dakota, and there’s no more egregious dependent, government-tit-sucking welfare queens than subsidized row crow and sugar farmers.
Most people who were trapped in New Orleans owned no car, and couldn’t afford more than a few days of food at a time. Bottled water, are you kidding?
****mook.
Mark Folses last blog post..Daddy Would Be So Proud
June 13th, 2008 at 15:12
So what you are saying Mark, is that you are about as bright as the people who left 500 buses to get flooded instead of loading them with the people who had no cars and getting them out of town.
When North Dakota has a disaster then we can discuss North Dakota.
Bottled water? There was a tractor trailer load of it that the governor would not let in because she did not want people to congregate at the Super Dome. America sent tons of food and water Mark, government did not distribute it.
I imagine it would have been better if criminals were not out looting and the police had stayed on the job.
June 13th, 2008 at 23:43
Mark missed the point entirely….
Good points BD
Buffoons last blog post..FRED THOMPSON: THE ONE THAT GOT AWAY
June 14th, 2008 at 10:08
[...] ****mook, FYYFF, Hagee, Iowa, Katrina, urban myth trackback No one should be surprised that this sort of ****mookery has crawled out from beneath the rocks where it lives? Cedar Rapids is under water and 15 people [...]
June 14th, 2008 at 11:02
[...] Big Dog points out here and I pointed out here, isn’t it "funny" how damn near the entire state of Iowa is [...]
June 14th, 2008 at 11:15
That’s a lot of generalizations you are making about my people. Is everybody the same where you live? Why you gotta hate us New Orleanians so much?
I bet you didn’t know 90% of New Orleanians evacuated before the storm or that federal levees breached without even being overtopped or that 120 square miles - urban square miles, in just Orleans Parish, flooded and sat in salt water for weeks.
Did 90% of residents in Cedar Rapids and Des Moines evacuate before breaches? Was flooding to the rooftops? Did levees breach without even being overtopped? Was the US Army Corps of Engineers solely responsible for the design and construction of those levees?
June 14th, 2008 at 11:25
Ray,
Let’s get a few things straight for you. The MSM did not report that 90% of the people made it out. We saw the beleaguered 10% who were failed by local government and who refused to leave. That 10% is what Ray Nagin said would be abandoned when he exercised his disaster plan.
The Corps of Engineers recommended a levee that would withstand a Cat 5 hurricane and NO said only make it a Cat 3. You see, each levee has its own board and they regulate each levee separately. Instead of spending federal money on the levees that the COE recommended, NO spent it on floating casinos. The corruption in NO is why those levees did not stand, not the skill with which they were built. The COE built them the way NO wanted them.
The water in Cedar Rapids is not as high on the houses but in case you did not notice that city is ABOVE sea level. People in NO live below the level of the water so naturally it will be higher if there is a breach. This is why it is all the more important for the local government to issue evacuation orders and to assist people out. Instead, Nagin was in the fetal position sucking his thumb. The people in NO had advance warning that a hurricane was coming and ignored it. They breathed a sigh of relief when it missed them and went about partying until that levee broke in the middle of the night.
It would be helpful if you knew what you were talking about before posting. Also, you guys successfully blamed it all on President Bush (even though most of the fault is with the residents, Blanco and Nagin) so don’t come here and tell me that it was not that bad after crying for many years about how awful it was.
All one needs to do is look at how the money that taxpayers from EVERY OTHER STATE paid (and should not have) to NO is being wasted on things that were not affected by the flood. That is corruption.
June 14th, 2008 at 11:26
Big Dog,
Just like where you live, the vast majority of New Orleanians are law abiding, hard working, church going, tax paying US citizens. 90% of us did not have to depend on government to rescue us - and that was a good thing because every level of government failed us miserably. You can claim our levee breaches were my fault, but if you read the levee failure investigation reports, you would learn our outfall canal levee failures were 100% engineering mistakes.
70% of us even had flood insurance. How many in Cedar Rapids or Des Moines have flood insurance?
You are not being fair to us. We’re doing the best we can.
June 14th, 2008 at 11:52
I have no doubt that the majority of people in NO are good, law abiding citizens and just want to get on with their lives.
The media along with Blanco and Nagin made this about the federal government and this idea that NO is ignored because it has a large black population. Remember the statement, George Bush hates black people? That statement is wrong and it cut to the heart of people who worked hard to send money and clothes there. I was involved in collecting and sending tons of food and clothes.
The rap song by someone named KO does not make it better. The idea that stuff was withheld is partially true. Blanco withheld it.
The levees were built to the standards of the levee boards. The COE has very capable people and maybe they did make mistakes but they followed what NO wanted them to do.
Tragedy is bad no matter where it happens. My point is that the media is not running through Iowa pointing out tragedy and fingering the president. They did that in NO because a small percentage of the population that is used to living off the government and having government take care of them could not fend for themselves.
You say it is unfair to point to all of NO for failings when 90% went OK.
How fair is it to blame the ENTIRE Bush administration for all the failures of Blanco and Nagin and for the 10% or so of the response that was screwed up? 90% of the FEMA response went well. There were some problems but they had to move a lot of resources from very distant places.
As long as people can blame the entire Bush administration then it is fair to blame all of NO for its own problems. If you want fairness try telling politicians that the federal response was 90% good. I bet that if they had done that to start with people would not be so hard on NO.
June 14th, 2008 at 12:18
We people that were victims of levee failures feel very insulted that our losses became and still are a partisan issue. Republicans & Democrats are equally guilty for doing that and it is not fair to levee failure victims. As a matter of fact, very few of us could care less about placing blame! We just want to survive this ordeal and would appreciate a little empathy & understanding from our countrymen. Many of us feel very disenfranchised by the way people like you talk about us.
That is not true what you said about levees being built to the standards of the levee boards. The Corps never accepted input or oversight on their levee designs or construction. They were constrained by our levee board to an undersized footprint where they could build the levees, but that is not a valid excuse for their levee design errors. Read the levee failure investigation reports, even the one by the Corps - they were 100% responsible for the engineering mistakes that led to the callapse of the outfall canal levees - without even being overtopped. This is a clear fact. The Corps testified exactly that before Congress and a federal judge also ruled that that was the case. Yes, I believe the Corps has some good people, but the overall organization is incompetent and individuals within the Corps are quilty of engineering negligence.
What is everyone’s obsession with blaming political parties for New Orleans’ problems? The Corps has been short sheeting New Orleans for 50 years with the help of every political party.
June 14th, 2008 at 12:25
I will certainly look into those things. My sources tell me that the levee boards have gotten more and more money and that it gets diverted to other interests.
Maybe they made mistakes but the Corps gains nothing by short sheeting NO. NO politicians do.
The people might not care one way or the other but you would not know that by the number interviewed who blamed, and to this day, blame the feds.
June 14th, 2008 at 14:00
Little Dog,
why would you use the tragedy of so many to piss on the tragedy of so many others, especially with such a misinformed or just blatantly ignorant view of either?
You know nothing of how your unelected presidente continues to stick it to you and your ilk of neocoward, Machiavelli-wannabees. You remind me of the homoentropic Brown-shirts that Hitler had massacred after he solidified control in Germany.
Do you know the demographics of all those who lost their lives from that Federal Flood? Do you know the levels of Agriculture Dept Subsidies in the State of Iowa alone, not to mention the other ADM sharecropping states.
Why aren’t you covering this tragedy rather than using it to kick me, who survived your unelected presidente’s best efforts to leave me to die?
And btw, it was FEMA who kept the water out of New Orleans and your illegitimate administration in Washington that held back Federal Troops. Check your facts, Little Man. Isn’t that the least you can do before you try to run with Big Dogs?
Editilla
New Orleans News Ladders last blog post..Samedi
June 14th, 2008 at 14:10
Ladder, it is easy to dismiss you because you only write to insult and not add to the discussion. I am well informed, probably more so than you. It is also easy to dismiss you with the Bush was not elected crap. Count after count after count shows he was elected but some people will never see it.
How do you feel knowing Obambi was selected and not elected? No crying about it I bet.
Bush did not leave you to die, Nagin and Blanco did. The real blame is on you for not having enough sense to leave.
FEMA did not keep the water out of NO. It was sent by the Red Cross and Blanco kept it out.
The demographics of those who died in Katrina? Sure, while larger numbers of blacks died (in raw numbers) a larger number of whites, as a percentage of population, died in the flood. I also know that 1) it was one tenth of what they predicted when they were screaming and 2) they would be alive if they had left on those buses before they got flooded.
Accept responsibility for your own acts. You did make my point though. By indicating that you feel Bush left you to die you are admitting you were waiting for (and expecting) government to save you.
Responsibility. You might try it.
June 14th, 2008 at 15:21
Wrong Little Man,
do your homework on the Red Cross and FEMA. You do not even rate a footnote there. Poor baby feels insulted. Oh, you can’t stand the heat of real experience. You don’t like it when I, who was there, beg to differ with you, who were not there but feel like you have some moral authority to comment on the Federal Flood of New Orleans? Blancho and Nagin were there. You were not. Where were you?
I stayed because I had no idea that the Corps of Engineers had lied about building sound levees. I stayed to plug in after the storm. Why I stayed has nothing to do with the failure of those Corps-built levees. If those levees had not failed because of criminally negligent engineering, admitted to in Federal Court, I would not be here trying to contradict your Limabaudian McRhetorical Syllodomists Spin on your Administration’s failure to protect me the tax payer. I paid for those levees and they failed–not because Katrina missed the city a weakened Cat 2 storm, but because they were built substandard:
http://kerrn.org/pdf/IPETBEAreview.pdf
How in the world do you not know any of this?
Such self-inflicted ignorance serves only to highlight the biggest difference that I see between real Conservatives, like me, and neocon brown shirts like you. You haven’t even looked at the studies of those failed levees. You don’t know a damn thing of what you speak. Such grotesque stupidity doesn’t even rate footnotes either. You simply do not want to know what happened or you would know.
Do not even try to slag your government hand-out BS on me you coward. I was there and continue to deal with it–while you were obviously not and you continue to spread lies and vitriol about the survivors. I pay taxes. Is that all you’ve got? Just because I disagree with your baseless innuendo means that I must be waiting for a government handout? Is that all you neo’corksuckers ever have? Can’t you freaks ever deal with real information rather than just try to insult survivors of catastrophy. You started this not me. Why does it always have to be bellyfeel newspeak?
The fact that FEMA cut the communications lines for the Jefferson parish Emergency Response Team, the fact the people in FEMA jackets turned away at least 4 Walmart trucks of bottled water, the fact that your unelected president appointed a horse show judge as head of the nation’s front-line emergency response matters to me but not to you. Why is that, Little Man?
And before you go there, I am a registered gun-toting independent conservative Eagle Scout who would love to face you down in any street any day.
You still have not answered my question though, why are you such a coward bully intent on using the tragedy of so many to piss on the tragedy of so many more?
New Orleans News Ladders last blog post..Samedi
June 14th, 2008 at 15:41
Am I supposed to be afraid of a blow hard who makes threats on the internet. You might think you would want to face me but I can promise you it might not be what you think.
Those levees were constructed over decades and they were not put up during the Bush administration. Your contention that you were not protected BY THE LEVEES BUILT BY GOVERNMENT is valid. However, it is valid in hindsight since a Cat 5 storm was expected and you did not leave. You ended up being fortunate to have been left with a Cat 2-3 that missed the place.
The government in general (and had nothing to do with Bush specifically) failed you and it started long ago and ended with Blanco and Nagin.
Mu piece is not to hurt one group or another. It is to demonstrate that in the after math of tragedy some groups respond differently than others. Those who depend on government cannot fend for themselves. Those who loot stores, are criminals. Don’t tell me they were looking for food unless you people in NO eat TVs and clothes. My personal feeling is screw NO. I worked hard to collect and send and my soldiers deployed there to help. The thanks we get is more corruption. William Jefferson is a prime example of what comes out of there. I think the recovery plan should be to fill in NO with dirt and move the city limit back to above sea level. You live below the sea. The Indians sold the land because it flooded when it rained.
Are you familiar with the national incident command system? Under it, all supplies are placed in logistics and then sent in a coordinated manner. If trucks with water were not allowed to enter the city (where they would no doubt be looted) they were sent to the logistical storage area where the supplies could be counted and distributed.
You are easily dismissed because you have no ability to conduct a reasonable conversation without threats or name calling. Be more respectful or your posting here is done. In case you have any issues with that read the rules for this blog. Don’t mind a good debate but if you want to threaten or belittle do that in your parent’s basement.
June 14th, 2008 at 16:10
This is from CBS news and it is about the report cited above. Notice how the COE is part of the problem as are LOCAL politicians.
New Orleans’ levee system was routinely underfunded and therefore inadequate to protect against hurricanes, according to an independent report released Monday.
The report also called for an overhaul of the agencies that oversee flood protection. It took aim at Congress for its piecemeal funding over the past 50 years, and at state and local levee authorities for failing to properly oversee maintenance of the levees.
“You tend to get what you pay for,” Dave Rogers, a member of the team of academics who extensively studied the system, said during a news conference on Monday.
The study was performed by the Independent Levee Investigation Team, led by the University of California, Berkeley. The group has been highly critical of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, which was in charge of designing and building the complicated system.
The study released Monday said floods overwhelmed levees and flood walls, both on the fringes and inside the city. Breaches were caused by weak soil in the levees, poor engineering and breakdowns in sections where different types of flood protection meet. CBS News correspondent Byron Pitts reports that in several places along the 350-mile levee system, the Corps used cheap material — sand instead of clay. According to investigators, the foundation for the levee walls were in some places just 13 feet deep — they should have been 60.
Pitts reports the culture at the Corps of Engineers changed in the past 40 years. Budget cuts and infighting between local politicians led to deadly inefficiency.
“We took the engineering out of the Corps of Engineers, and that’s in an attempt to become better, faster, cheaper project managers,” said Bob Bea, a former engineer with the Corps who worked on the investigation team.
As CBS News’ Steve Futtermann reports, the findings dispute most of the corps’ preliminary findings about what caused the levee breaches, saying the investigators had made critical errors in their analysis, as the Los Angeles Times notes. All bold emphasis mine.
As I have stated in many posts, there is plenty of blame to go around. This post is about how different segments of our population handle tragedy. This is about effective governance (Iowa has Democrats and Republicans) and how good leadership works.
There were people in the Super Dome who acted like animals. They were poor, no doubt, but they were used to being cared for and did not know how to care for themselves.
People in the latest tragedy are somewhat different. They are used to taking care of themselves and their neighbors. They are not looting and they are not acting like criminals. I imagine their murder rate is historically much lower than that of NO.
People who live their lives dependent upon the government lose the ability to take care of themselves. So called conservatives can come here and call me names and make threats (BTW, I am not a neocon because it means NEW conservative. I am an old conservative who believes in traditional conservative values).
People stayed for many reasons. Some had no transportation and were abandoned by Mayor Nagin. Others stayed to help afterwards which means they stayed through a storm predicted to be in excess of the capacity of the levees. They knew the chance existed that the levees would break. Given the corruption there and the problems with the local COE outlined in the report, it is no wonder they were breached.
Someone still needs to tell us where the money went to maintain the levees. Casinos comes to mind. BTW, I read somewhere that Bush provided more money for the levees than the guy he replaced. The problem there has been going on for 50 years and Bush got all the blame.
So while those who lived there went through tragedy and obviously suffered mental trauma (as evidenced by the gun toting Ladder guy who rants about what he saw in his little piece of the world, the reality is that LOCAL government screwed the pooch during the tragedy, federal government screwed the pooch in the opening stages of the response and the government in general screwed the pooch with 50 years of ineptitude and corruption. I also wonder if the guy who worries about a so called horse show judge being appointed feels about the rodeo clown that the past president had running it?
Keep in mind the levees were not built during George Bush’s administration so it was someone else who failed to protect.
I have participated in quite a number of events with FEMA and I have written and evaluated evacuation plans. I have evaluated many disaster drills. I have just a bit of experience in emergencies and I have a whole lot of training in Incident Command (NIMS). So while I appreciate the view of a person who rode out the storm I am not some uninformed hack who decided to pick on NO.
NO has been a big waste of money.
June 14th, 2008 at 19:18
Yes, they knew how to care for themselves. When the food and water for three days they had been told to bring was exhausted, and the federal government failed to arrive on the scene with additional supplies as clearly specified in the local and state emergency plans, they went out and took what they could find.
You suggest the people of Iowa would behave differently under the same circumstances, but they have never been tested. It was on the Wednesday after the Federal levees failed due to the well documented shortcomings in the Corps’ engineering and construction that someone first suggested this idea to me: “we would never behave that way”. After I rejected my first impulse, which was to toss this former chief of staff for a United States senator over the railing of the rooftop bar where we were attending a cocktail party, I gave him the only answer I could think of: then your people would die, and mine would live.
The gene pool would be improved.
As to the buses, per the well documented and well executed local and state evacuation plans (reviewed, exercised and approved by FEMA) the request to access the state school buses had to go through FEMA and it never happened.
The city buses were too busy ferrying people to the shelter of last resort.
And if every single bus had been pressed into service, which 50,000 people would you have left behind? I have the numbers and that is what would have happened under the most idyllic of circumstances.
I recall watching the scene in War of the Worlds in which the crowd is rioting trying to get over the ferry, and my then 11-year old asked me, “Daddy, is that what New Orleans was like”. I told him, yes, it was.
If you think the people of the midwest would behave differently under these circumstances, please feel free to visit http://www.toulousestreet.net and let me know when you are willing to submit yourself to the test.
I will be happy as time presents over the rest of the weekend to rebut the rest of the Fox Sunday Morning nonsense you are parroting re: what happened in New Orleans, but for now I have to go stir a pot before dinner scorches.
Mark Folses last blog post..Boy Scouts Save Iowa
June 14th, 2008 at 20:46
I definitely agree that the failings of FEMA should be getting some coverage.
But the two events are much different. Hurricane Katrina affected a large number of states and areas, even those that were not in the path of the actual hurricane; and it killed many hundreds of Americans, thousands even, I don’t recall the death count.
And I don’t know why you guys are arguing over New Orleans, or why New Orleans was put as the biggest issue both during and after Katrina; Katrina hurt a whole lot of people, not just those in New Orleans.
Charles Lumias last blog post..Leni Riefenstahl - A Great Artist - Part 2
June 14th, 2008 at 21:23
Mr. Big Dog:
You’re an idiot & I am so sick of this sort of crap.
coldH2Owis last blog post..Cool Find
June 14th, 2008 at 21:44
Mr. Big Dog,
Please educate yourself about what happened in New Orleans after the storm. Listen to Ray and Mark Folse. They have been on the front lines from the beginning. Don’t ever think the media is unbiased. They all have an agenda. Listen to us. We are the eye witnesses. We have seen our government on all levels fail us completely. The only way New Orleans exists today is through individual bravery and sacrifice. I am a conservative that has lost all faith in America. I DO believe in New Orleanians though. A tougher breed was never known. I only wish the people of the mid west the best. We know better than anyone the tough road ahead of them. I only hope they also don’t lose the sense of being American as we have. I hope they only feel support from their own countrymen. That is something we never had the joy of experiencing.
June 14th, 2008 at 22:15
LMAO
Dude, your totally getting flamed!
Sorry, I’m laughing with you, not at you.
You may want to save your breath… they clearly don’t get it. Let them keep counting on the gub’ment to get them by,,, they’ll be gone soon enough.
Just sayin….
June 14th, 2008 at 22:17
“There were people in the Super Dome who acted like animals. They were poor, no doubt, but they were used to being cared for and did not know how to care for themselves.”
Whatever you say, Einstein.
June 14th, 2008 at 22:22
Total gub’mint subsidies 1995-2006 for the all the lazy white lice who live in Iowa: $15,990,898,128.00
Yeah, they sure do pick themselves up by their bootstraps out there in Iowa. It’s that American work ethic.
June 15th, 2008 at 00:03
Let’s not forget those subsidy bootstraps in Indiana:$6.60 billion in subsidies 1995-2006. $20,800,000.00 in just 2 counties alone–and that to people who don’t even farm!
http://indianalawblog.com/archives/2006/07/law_farm_progra.html
Or Illinois (3rd in the nation): $13.4 billion in subsidies 1995-2006
Hey Baboon, Big Dog. do you see Louisiana in this list of the top twenty recipients of direct subsidy payments? You neo’guys, like your faux’presidente, just have real problems with facts, eh? Lay off New Orleans or pay even more to your Saudi Lords of the Bush.
1 Riceland Foods Inc Stuttgart, AR 72160 $554,343,039
2 Producers Rice Mill Inc ∗ Stuttgart, AR 72160 $314,028,012
3 Farmers Rice Coop Sacramento, CA 95851 $146,174,314
4 Harvest States Cooperatives Saint Paul, MN 55164 $49,470,473
5 Dnrc Trust Land Management - Exem Helena, MT 59620 $38,396,957
6 Tyler Farms ∗ Helena, AR 72342 $37,009,744
7 Sd Building Authority Sioux Falls, SD 57117 $29,843,276
8 Ducks Unlimited ∗ Memphis, TN 38120 $29,387,612
NOTE: Over 80 percent of the payments listed for Ducks Unlimited are ‘cost share’ reimbursements for technical assistance to restore wetlands at many locations on private lands not owned by D.U. The technical assistance is provided to private landowners under contractual arrangement through USDA’s Natural Resources Conservation Service.
9 Pilgrim’s Pride Corporation ∗ Broadway, VA 22815 $26,461,206
10 Missouri Delta Farms ∗ Sikeston, MO 63801 $25,280,578
11 Montana Board Of Investments - Se Saint Paul, MN 55170 $21,974,620
12 Bureau Of Indian Affairs ∗ Prescott, AZ 86304 $20,127,881
13 Dublin Farms ∗ Corcoran, CA 93212 $17,806,035
14 Cargill Turkey Products Harrisonburg, VA 22801 $17,593,150
15 Due West ∗ Glendora, MS 38928 $17,201,166
16 Morgan Farms ∗ Cleveland, MS 38732 $15,975,282
17 Walker Place ∗ Danville, IL 61832 $15,652,517
18 Napi ∗ Farmington, NM 87499 $15,349,739
19 Colorado River Indian Tribes Farm ∗ Parker, AZ 85344 $14,703,244
20 Perthshire Farms ∗ Gunnison, MS 38746 $14,084,694
Wisconsin: 4.31 billion in subsidies 1995-2006
Louisiana: 3.71 billion in subsidies 1995-2006
http://farm.ewg.org/farm/region.php?fips=17000
New Orleans News Ladders last blog post..Samedi
June 15th, 2008 at 00:15
So farm subsidies for people who work hard are the same as welfare checks to those who do not work.
I am actually quite happy these folks dropped by. They are affirming that everything was fine in NO, the people did well, and that they exercised their FEMA approved plans. The report they sent clearly indicates that local politicians were to blame for the failures of the levees.
The buses that could have made round trip evacuation runs (shuttled people out) were left on a lot supposedly because they needed FEMA permission to use them. This of course cannot be true because the federal government cannot tell a state how to use its assets. Even so, who would request the use of their own buses? It is a lame excuse for incompetence.
Someone put out a call for moonbats to come by and leave a comment. Good, it shows how many people are unable to comprehend the written word. The post has not been refuted, Iowans are not sitting around waiting for help or looting the stores. That was the norm in NO.
Some have asked why so tough on NO or why bring it up? As much as the idiots in the MSM and as much as the people of NO complained about everything and tried to blame everyone but themselves and their local politicians.
June 15th, 2008 at 00:17
As for these subsidies, perhaps you can show the welfare numbers instead. How do you subsidize working a place where most folks are not working.
Or you could list the 250 BILLION dollars wasted to rebuild the place.
June 15th, 2008 at 08:08
The people at the Superdome generally behave pretty well under the circumstances according to people who were there, or are you relying exclusively on the ravings of our former police chief who pretty much broke down during the entire event? Same at the convention center. None of the reports of rape or violence etc. were later confirmed. As for looting, I was living away when this occured and pretty much monitored the media 20 hours a day that first week. Most of the looting of crap video were the same few people, looped over and over again. Most of the people were taking food, water, diapers, baby formula. Again, you suggest Iowans who were trapped by flood water (as opposed to simply driven out of their homes to the other side of town) for days without relief would simply sit there and die rather than act? If your elderly mother or baby were dying of dehydration you would not smash your way into a store if that were your only option?
Did you miss the fact that the vast majority of the rescues of people trapped in their homes in New Orleans were not conducted by the Coasties, who got their own TV miniseries out of it, but by the Wildlife and Fisheries Service and the “Cajun Navy” of volunteers?
Sorry to have kicked off a sh*t storm over welfare but if you’re going to characterize an entire people over the empty talking points from the Reagan Administration over a welfare program that no longer exists, well, you deserve it. And I don’t think anyone from an agricultural state should criticize recipients of routine or disaster assistance. But let’s not lose sight of the real facts.
This is about Iowan versus New Orleans. (I brought in North Dakota because this same sort of “were not like them” crap came up there two years ago).
In brief, if you want to compare the two situations you need to concentrate all of the evacuated Iowans on the edge of the flood zone with no food, water or shelter. Any who attempt to leave should be met with armed force. For helpful comparison, try to make sure there is a locked but available source of food or water available. The only assistance will be armed, uniformed troops who have no spare food or water to give them. And we will see how long it takes them to
“behave like animals” and start looting that store, or if most of them are willing to just sit there in 95 degree heat and watch the elderly and infirm and the infants die.
Mark Folses last blog post..Boy Scouts Save Iowa
June 15th, 2008 at 08:30
Two final thoughts: The more I think about it, this is an easy experiment to conduct, and Iowa provides us a place to do it. We can debunk this nonsense once and for all. Go to the largest shelter in Iowa today. Nail all the doors and windows shut. Turn off the power and running water. No aid or assistance can be rendered to those who manage to break out. It will be helpful if there is a well stocked and locked grocery across the street. Come back in five days and check on them and see how they’re doing.
Second: if you want an example of self-reliance you need only look at the 200,000 early returnees who came home to New Orleans and have rebuilt the city with virtually no government assistance, out of their meager insurance settlements (given that the current business model of the insurance industry is to fight every claim to the death). Almost all of the $115 Billion in aid people like to throw around went to 1) flood insurance payments the federal government was contractually and by law required to make 2) immediate aftermath work by large, outside contractors on no-bid contracts (the Iraq model, and many of the same companies) awarded at rates that shocked emergency preparedness officials in Florida and 3) are tied up in a monumental bureaucracy created by the Bush-controlled HUD and a large private contractor (not the government)
We are rebuilding an entire city largely on our own, supplemented primarily by the volunteer assistance of many fine Americans (many no doubt from Iowa) who have come at their own expense to help.
There is no finer place to be an American today than in New Orleans. It is the last flashing hope of the sort of self-reliance and community spirit that built the country still actually playing out.
One last thought: in the information above, we did not take the engineering out of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers. The Army and Congress did that, and as a result thousands died and hundreds of thousands suffered when the levees failed due to the well-documented engineering and construction shortfalls. The local levee boards basically mow the grass on the levees. You point out the levee that failed because they grass was not mowed and we’ll cheerfully own that one. Also, Congress never authorized Category 5 hurricane protection. Funny that the Netherlands and England can manage 10,000 year storm protection while the Corps and Congress struggle to manage 100 year storm protection. It must be nice to live in country still capable of great things.
Mark Folses last blog post..Boy Scouts Save Iowa
June 15th, 2008 at 09:48
I have no doubt there are many fine people living in NO. I have no doubt it is those people who are doing a great job to rebuild the place. As someone earlier stated, 90% are good people.
WHat happened to NO is a shame but it happened all across the Gulf Coast and NO got all the attention. It happens all the time in Florida and we never hear these kinds of stories.
A small group of people did bad things during a crisis, however, a not so small group of people blamed it on George Bush and the federal government. Emergency response is a local responsibility and the local government completely melted down.
Certainly there were problems with the federal response but listening to the news and to Congress viewers get the impression that there was no blame locally, it was all at the federal level.
My post points to what I have written a number of times, places with effective leaders do well in emergencies (Mississippi during Katrina, Iowa now, Colorado in the back to back blizzards). NO and LA had terrible leadership. The city has a majority poor population that is used to living off the government, just plain simple facts. Without leadership from their government, they were doomed to failure.
If the MSM and the Democrats in Congress and across the country had reported this fairly and stopped pointing fingers to DC, if Kanye West and other idiots had not invoked race (George Bush hates black people) and if the politicians in LA had not played games with their financial aid requests then maybe people like me would not have a bitter attitude toward what happened there.
It was a disaster played up for liberal politicians and their political purposes. It involved a population that is heavily dependent upon government, all facts. It was heart wrenching but to blame it on the feds. Food, water, shelter are all local responsibilities.
Don’t forget, when you state who did the work, it was a lot of National Guardsmen and Coast Guard who did those helicopter rescues. The reports of gunshots (which turned out to be untrue) hampered efforts and delayed supplies. Nagin was (and still is) an ineffective leader and he has a lot of the blame.
As for the levees, that problem has been ongoing for 50 years. We can say they are responsible for everything levee but evidently no one there, including the COE, knew that. The Corps was blocked from getting to the site and people had to have meetings to decide who was responsible. It was a mess culminating from years of corruption (from all parties), years of neglect, years of denial and years of good ole boy politics. The people paid the price.
Just as all the bad stuff was aimed at DC and the current administration, all the bad stuff involving the NO people gets reflected to the greater population. If a few dozen people use gvt. debit cards at liquor stores and strip clubs, it reflects on everyone (in the greater light). People who loot non essential items are highlighted as indicative of all people.
As I stated earlier, I am sure that 90% of the people were good and it was overshadowed by the 10% that was not. I am also sure that 90% of the federal response (response not some long standing problem with levees) was good and 10% bad.
Just as the people of NO get a bad wrap for the actions of a small minority, so goes it with the federal government, an entity that has no jurisdiction until called upon by the governor. She should have made the call earlier.
June 15th, 2008 at 10:01
http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=4414
June 15th, 2008 at 12:28
Dr. J said
I hope they only feel support from their own countrymen. That is something we never had the joy of experiencing.
My heart went out to those in NO and I worked hard to get them things they needed. My heart goes out to those in Iowa and other states.
The comment made though is beyond belief. How many people in this country opened their communities and their homes to refugees of NO? How many billions of taxpayer dollars went to NO? How many people went to NO as volunteers to help out? How much did people donate in money and supplies and how many stores gave items away to help?
If you did not experience support then you were not looking…
June 15th, 2008 at 14:02
[...] not with his children today in his mind. I kept it looping in the backround as, after battling with right wing golem Big Dog and his stupid Iowa versus New Orleans nonsense, I found myself this morning finally assembling a lot of Federal Flood pictures I had collected [...]
June 15th, 2008 at 14:36
Little Man,
Most on that list are Agriculture Corporations, particularly the ones who got subsidies who do not even farm, are Bush donors.
Can’t you do better than this?
What happened in New Orleans has did not and has never happened on the Coast or anywhere else in America. No one, Iowa included, has had so much standing water for so long.
Do you know how much water sat on the ground for over a month of hot Sundays? Nearly 500,000,000,000 metric tons. Why? Because your Corps of Engineers cold not pump it out fast enough. Why? Because your Corps of Engineers kept buying faulty pumps from Bush Donors.
Hell most Americans that you ask blame Bush for leaving me to die. They saw him absolutely screw the American Tax Payer.
They witnessed your unelected presidente eating birthday cake with your next unelectable presidente, they witnessed him at a Golf Club, they witnessed him come up with the nickname “Brownie” on the spot because your ignorant frat boy couldn’t remember Michael Brown’s name because he had never spent more than 5 minutes around him on only a few occasions.
Your arguements, like your levees, are falling down around you. Falling Down. The only trouble is it is falling all around us too.
Thanks alot for handing our country over to a Family of Nazi Sympathizers and Royal Saudis.
Thank you for giving away our freedoms like a well-behaved jail house punk.
Your word is broken.
June 15th, 2008 at 15:19
You really have mental issues, such an angry person and so full of conspiracy. You live below seal level that is why there was so much water and for so long. Your Congress, members of both parties, give out those subsidies all the time. They have before this president and they will after. Look at who benefits and you will see it is not the president but some Congressman from the state.
Keep up your conspiracy theories. You are mental and you need help.
I felt sorry for the people of NO when it happened but then after they started whining and acting like fools I washed my hands of them. I decided I would never give another dollar or donate any items to them especially after they reelected Nagin.
Your meme about Bush being unelected is stupid. He won, get over it. Hurricanes happen, get over it. You live below the water, you get wet. Too bad, man up.
June 15th, 2008 at 18:21
Big Dog,
When you use the word “them” it makes it seem as we have giant meetings here in New Orleans and decide en masse what to do.
We don’t,believe me.
When your entire City is evacuated every person who evacuates has a story.
The decisions you make and the choices are ones not made with any surety that you are doing the right or wrong thing but you are doing the thing you can do.
The Year before Katrina I drove 12 hours to Florida to deliver supplies to my sister and brother in law, and our parents after Hurricane Charlie destroyed their homes.
When they put out the call to evacuate here, my husband I and I had to decide if we wanted to stay or go. Knowing that going for us meant 15 hours in the car with me laying on the floor and barfing from the effects of chemotherapy along with a frightened 14 year old and 2 dogs who don’t travel well.
My neighbors knew that evacuating with their great grandmother would be impossible so they stayed and she died about 4 days after the storm. When they swam out they had to leave her corpse behind.
My backyard Neighbors decided to stay along with about 4 other families. They had a week of provisions and the knowledge that we live in a part of the City that has never even seen street flooding.
They made rafts and floated out after 4 days knowing that the water was not going to subside and that they may be subjected to disease in the toxic waters.
There are a lot more nuances to the story than the “good” people who live somewhere and the “bad” people who live somewhere else.
Good and bad exist in each community, it is the way of the world.
Having said that, I wish no community the grief and anguish of destruction, we all live at the mercy of mother nature.
June 15th, 2008 at 18:59
Big Dog said: “WHat happened to NO is a shame but it happened all across the Gulf Coast and NO got all the attention. It happens all the time in Florida and we never hear these kinds of stories.”
Big Dog, We New Orleanians sincerely empathize with our countrymen suffering life altering losses to floods upriver and with our fellow citizens in other hurricane states that have suffered many a bad storm. We truly do. We hope you do too. It seems you are only interested in using our losses to promote some childish political position.
This is where you just don’t get it. You apparently cannot comprehend the scope and extent of death & damage in New Orleans and the effect of that much widespread damage on the survivors trying to recover and just how ridiculous it was/is for outsiders to expect anything at all in the way of self help of the effected, including local government. Then, as if things ain’t rough enough, millions of misinformed morons keep pontificating about our character & our right to rebuild our home. Add to that an outright blatant conspiracy by state and federal government and utilities, insurance companies and MF’n carpetbagger major corporations to divert our recovery money elsewhere and claim we got funds we didn’t and constantly blame us victims.
It is as if the Army accidentally set off a few high yield nuclear weapons in our city (sans radiation) while 90% of us weren’t home - not foreign terrorists - our US Army. Then the Army says ‘Oops, well we learned a lot. I hope y’all had insurance to cover your losses, because the federal government is not going to be responsible for the federal government’s actions.’ Now, New Orleanians, and our rebuilding investments, in what is left of our destroyed city, are at the mercy of the same US Army for storm surge protection and they are performing as if they learned nothing from their previous catastrophic mistakes.
Meanwhile, we also have to put up with fellow countrymen saying it was our own fault, we deserved what we got, it was a ‘natural’ disaster, we’re wusses for not handling it better, it wasn’t really as bad as we claim and we shouldn’t be allowed to rebuild, we are bad people, we’re lazy, stupid, ugly, smell bad, we should vacate our region - it has no value and insurance companies deny claims and quit writing wind policies even though it was flooding that caused our losses.
People like you should stop beating around the bush and lobby for South Louisiana to be forced to secede from the nation. Respect us, or let us go.
The next time I hear one of you hostile unsympathizing jerks bring up those stupid school board busses, I’m going to explode. Yes, it was a very ironic picture, but a totally trivial issue. Never mind the bus drivers had the keys and evacuated with their families Saturday and their is no relationship between the school board and city government. But, never let us forget the buses. Yep, what great fun to pick on us fellow citizens for something outside of our control, and even totally outside the control of our admittedly unprepared mayor. …buses, while levee overtopping was a major concern, NO ONE KNEW LEVEES (ENGINEERING STRUCTURES) WOULD FALL DOWN LIKE CHEAP MOVIE PROPS WITHOUT EVEN COMING CLOSE TO BEING OVERTOPED!! who thought we would need buses
Geez, I reckon you are perfect and expect the same of everyone else. I challenge you to post your household emergency evacuation plan, right this second. Also, starting right now, you have 30 hours to implement your plan (do what you gotta do and get your loved ones a few hundred miles away) to perfection, secure your home, business and whatever other property. Don’t evacuate into the path of the storm. Don’t forget to help your neighbors and elderly and those that cannot travel due to illness. Good luck scoring your prescription refills and some gas before you go. It is Saturday, so forgetabout emptying your safety deposit box and all of the ATMs are already empty. And, when you get on the road, your destination, a six hour drive, is going to take 20 hours. Did you make hotel reservations? Do they take pets? Remember you are competing with about 800,000 other people for about 200,000 hotel rooms. Did you board up? Even if your home survives, what is going to happen to that stuff you left in the refrigerator and freezer - the electricity will be out for at least a week? Your alarm system isn’t going to work. Maybe you feel you need to stay and protect your property. If you leave, they will not let you return to check on or defend your property What? Your elderly mom refuses to leave, no one can find Uncle Joe, but his car is parked at his house? Your spouse’s job requires her to stay at the hospital? Darn, cell phones quit working. If you make a single mistake, I’ll never let you live it down. AAMOF, I’ll use your mistakes to blame you for your losses and crucify you. Thank goodness I’m educated and have a car we can use to evacuate. … buses?
As a New Orleanian, you cannot imagine how good my entire family is at evacuating - we have had a lot of experience - at great expense. None of us died in the flood, but we’ve lost three family members (and many friends and neighbors) to stress and hopelessness since the storm.
Bigdog, I normally wouldn’t wish our recent circumstance on anyone, but just so you could learn something about our reality, I almost wish you, all of your family and extended family and about a half million of your nearest neighbors and all of their homes, businesses, schools, churches and governments would suddenly suffer our fate and that the damage was caused by the US Army Corps of
Engineers. Of course, a lot of your loved ones would die and absolutely all of you would lose absolutely everything you ever owned except for whatever you took when you evacuated. Then, I want every level of government and utilities and insurance companies to all tell you ‘tough luck’ and fellow citizens to assassinate your character and deny your extent of damage, your difficulties, the true reason behind the damage. Morons would turn your losses into a political issue. Then, I hope your mother is one of the tens of thousands that wastes her homebuilding money on a crooked contractor.
Then, I’ll be interested in hearing your opinion on New Orleanians.
June 15th, 2008 at 23:08
I never said that anyone deserved this or that it was punishment or anything else. I am saying that a hurricane cannot be stopped and the blame for what happened was placed on President Bush and his administration. Instead of people just thanking for whatever help they got they nuanced about him being in a plane or eating cake as if he could swoop in and personally fix things.
There are plenty of good folks in NO and there are slugs. The lack of preparedness is a local government issue. I wish you all well and hope that things go OK for you.
You are assuming I have never been in a disaster. You also wish my family ill. All I can say is that if something bad happened some of my family could die but if they do it won’t be because they sat around waiting for the government to help them. And if they do I won’t go around blaming government for our misfortunes.
June 16th, 2008 at 00:27
‘if something bad happened some of my family’
not ’some’, all. + a half million neighbors - all gone. No one owns a single rust free hammer or saw. Instant 95% unemployment. No utilities. No building materials. All local gubernment employees laid off. Insurance Companies are denying all claims, banks are demanding mortgage payments, you cannot even get a permit to rebuild and assholes from all the country are constantly accusing you of being irresponsible, lazy and being a life long government dependent.
‘blaming government for our misfortunes.’
You might blame government if in fact government was responsible for your misfortunes, right? Engineering negligence by federal government engineers caused our damages! Who would you blame? Not the responsible party???
You would just bend over and take it, right? You wouldn’t defend your character or the very hard work you did to help your family and community recover? You wouldn’t try to correct the widespread mis-perceptions? Well, as long as my fellow Americans spread lies and hate about my people and my region, I’m going to try to defend our spot in this world. Get used to it. We’re not going down without a fight.
My family came here from Nova Scotia in 1765, we like it here, and if need be, we would rather live on boats than live anywhere else.
You New Orleans haters are bad citizens.
June 16th, 2008 at 09:23
If all of my family was affected I would ensure their safety. They would not have died there because we would have left.
The levee issue has been going on for 50 years. People who live in earthquake prone regions get hurt by earthquakes, those who live in hurricane regions, the same. Those who live in hurricane regions below the level of the sea are inviting trouble.
I would work very hard. Americans GAVE you (unconstitutionally) billions of dollars to fix the place up.
Like I said earlier, the local government is corrupt. Your comment about the county dealing with you improperly is proof.
No one accused yu personally, the fact is there were many who were/are dependent on government. They are now living in other states doing the same thing. The real workers, the worthwhile people, returned to rebuild.
June 16th, 2008 at 11:43
Big Dog,
Go back under your rock and watch some more BS on Fox Propoganda. You obviously have no clue as to what you are talking about.
Just remember this, once the full accounting has been made, and it is clear - EVEN TO MORONS LIKE YOU - how bad we’ve been screwed by the Bush administration, know that you are a co-conspirator, an accessory after the fact - you and all the other apologists for the Republican Crime Family.
June 16th, 2008 at 13:08
Big dog, you are bat crap crazy…
June 16th, 2008 at 13:40
Really, it seems the issue here for Big Dog is that he doesn’t like people blaming George W. Bush.
June 16th, 2008 at 13:45
No, it is certainly appropriate to blame George Bush for those things he is responsible. Immigration debacle, poor post invasion planning, cooperating with Democrats.
It is improper to blame him for things that he cannot control or is not responsible for. He did not make the hurricane come. State and local government is responsible. The federal government has no jurisdiction in state matters and assistance needs to be requested. Blanco did that a bit too late.
There are many thing I blame Bush for, Katrina is not one of them. The federal government could have done things better but it is ALL a state responsibility.
June 16th, 2008 at 13:47
“I would work very hard. Americans GAVE you (unconstitutionally) billions of dollars to fix the place up.”
Everyone in Iowa would be starving if it wasn’t farm subsidies, AKA gov’t handouts.
He, you all knew it would rain, you knew that river could flood and the levee could break but you chose to stay there.
June 16th, 2008 at 14:01
Here’s the problem. Bush didn’t build the levees. Bush didn’t set up FEMA. Bush didn’t set up the maintenance of the levees.
You can say that the government–at all levels– screwed up royally–they did. But the failure of the levees cannot be laid at the feet of the Bush administration.
But that’s how it got reported. Anger was directed–by the media–at the current administration. Why?
And those loops of looters. Not the people seeking food or water–the people with sneakers or televisions. Those were seized on and replayed endlessly. Why?
Again, to direct ire. To make people angry at the right people–while the actual culprits got off the hook.
New Orleans is very Democrat–and very corrupt in it’s politics. And yet where was the anger directed? Nagin screwed up, so did Blanco. Say that. Admit it. And get him and his political bedfellows out of control of New Orleans.
Big Dog, those subsidies are WORSE than welfare. Those people are being paid to not grow crops to keep the price of various agricultural products artificially higher. So they get our tax dollars to NOT farm, and they get our after tax dollars from artificially higher prices.
At least the people on welfare are only single-dipping.
Like it or not, the situations are comparable–but be clear as to how. They are comparable in their ability to be used as fodder to pit us against each other.
June 16th, 2008 at 14:39
It’s sad that people take 2 completely different disasters and try to compare them, especially when they seem to know so little of the facts. I have found that details fall on ‘deaf’ ears but sometimes, as they say ‘a picture speaks a thousand words’. So, I usually point my friends to my favorite site http://www.katrinadestruction.com/images/v/ and let them make up their own minds. Another helpful site for the order of what happened http://thinkprogress.org/katrina-timeline/
June 16th, 2008 at 15:06
Think Progress has this nifty time line and they a t like some of the normal things are terrible. Troops arrived 2 days after they were requested. Federal troops not authorized, National Guard from other states came. In two days? That is pretty good. FEMA standard is 72 hours. They made it in 48.
Most people say well, they requested help before the storm. OK, so how many things will be getting into NO within a day or 2 of the storm and who would arrive just before a CAT 5 to ride it out?
Evacuate your city and help will come when it is safe for help to arrive. The world did not stop when Katrina hit.
You see, I had great compassion for the people in NO but their jackass mayor and the state governor along with Mary Landreau and all the people whining and pointing fingers telling the rest of the country we did not do enough just turned me off to it all. The more the bitter people there attack, the deafer my ears become.
I sent quite a bit of stuff to NO but then after the whining and the lies about not getting help because they were mostly black, no more help from me. I am tired of the victim mentality.
Boo Hoo, we had a hurricane and floods. Well life sucks, and people all across this country suffer one kind of disaster or another. At least you all had a warning whether you decided to heed it or not. Many disasters pop up with little or no warning.
June 16th, 2008 at 15:15
“If all of my family was affected I would ensure their safety. They would not have died there because we would have left. ”
Until the police from the neighboring counties point an M-16 at the heads of your family and tell you that you cannot cross the bridge to safety, unless you wish to die on the spot.
What do you do then? Hmm?
Stop comparing disasters. How come you aren’t posting about the tragedies in Malaysia and China?
June 16th, 2008 at 15:35
Mostly because I don’t care about Malaysia and China.
I did not compare disaster. I compared the way people responded to disasters. This is a big difference that none of the NO apologists flamers here seem to understand.
Perhaps if people in NO were this fired up during Katrina there would have been more progress and more people could have been evacuated.
Also, no one stopped people from leaving before the storm. I also would not be leaving unarmed. The tyranny of the police only exists for people who let it.
But, since none of that happened BEFORE the floods, I would have been out of there.
June 16th, 2008 at 15:53
Sir, just a couple of ‘fun’ facts. From my understanding, once a Gov declares ’state of emergency’ and wh confirms it, all local/state and Fed agencies are put on notice & engaged. As to time for response, I believe in the (FOUR) 2004 hurricanes that struck FL, fema/and company were on hand the next day. In the Katrina evacuation, not only was NOLA evacuating, so was the entire southern coastal communites of La, Ms, Al and panhandle of FL…all were under hurricane threat. It took 10 hrs on highways to get to a normal 45 minute destination. All shelters, hotels, churches, schools, private homes, private/public community centers, convention centers (most not allowing pets)…etc were filled from NOLA to Little Rock, AR- Memphis, TN- N. Georgia, N. Alabama, N. Texas and all points in all directions were filled to capacity with evacuees. Fuel was depleted, supplies depleted and stores, restaurants & businesses were closed in preparation for the hurricane. Also, as a hurricane is making landfall, outer bands are severe, so the highways are closed (for emergency vehicles only) several hours before landfall and residents are ordered to shelter in place (not just LA but all hurricane prone areas) As to the warning (must not have ck’d timeline?) Katrina went across FL FRIDAY PM Cat 1- SAT Cat 2 in Gulf moving west - SUNDAY AM Cat 4 Cat 5 moving west- MONDAY 6 AM hit Buras, LA Cat 3or4 and a few hrs later hit LA/MS stateline and travelled into MS & AL. Actually not a lot of time wasted when you are moving millions of people from 4 states all at the same time.
June 16th, 2008 at 15:54
Isn’t it time to retire the “below sea level” canard, what with current events?
Oh, and it wasn’t Nagin or Blanco who gutted FEMA, downgraded it, and staffed it with cronies without any disaster management experience. Today’s FEMA has twice the permanent staff it had in 2005, and is headed by a former fire chief, not a horse show lawyer. It still ain’t what it was in the Witt years, but if the massive bungling of Katrina hadn’t embarrassed the administration into reforming some of FEMA’s most egregious problems, Iowa might be seeing a rather different disaster response. You *do* know Iowans are getting federal assistance from FEMA and other agencies, right? They’re not all getting by on sheer pluck?
June 16th, 2008 at 16:26
speaking as someone who traveled to NOLA after Katrina to bring aid and provide relief, and I have also been to Iowa and met the people there.
In NOLA the CITY of, culture was different than OUTSIDE New Orleans, most of the affected areas came back fairly quick. INSIDE New Orleans, the people seem to wait for someone to do it for them.
We were in the first group of relief workers allowed in the 9th ward. We saw the devastation, and I think it was far greater than in Iowa.
I also know that the vast majority of the population in New Orleans were wanting EVERYONE else to fix the problem with out lifting an arm to assist.Those outside of New Orleans, pitched in and assisted the relief workers and helped their neighbors.
I see a lot of the “Neighbors” helping “Neighbors” going on in Iowa, it would have been nice to see or been involved in more of that in New Orleans.
Roberts last blog post..Put in your REQUEST’S NOW!
June 16th, 2008 at 16:45
I am dumbfounded at the response this article has received - much of it completely irrelevant to the article. How can anyone have read this article and come to the conclusion that the author “hates” the people in New Orleans?
The comparison and contrast between the two events (the Iowa floods and Hurricaine Katrina), and the outcomes of those events is noteworthy, and I definitely think there are some lessons to be learned.
Anyone who has visited both places (Iowa, and southernmost Louisiana) can tell you there are many differences in the cultures.
With all duly-noted exceptions, the Iowa farmers tend to be very independent-minded. In contrast, there was, indeed, a disproportional amount of the population in the most televised part of New Orleans during the Katrina aftermath that was on public assistance prior to the storm. This difference in mindset surely played a role in the expectations of the people affected, and how they reacted immediately after the disaster.
June 16th, 2008 at 17:08
Wow, Big Dog, you can really attract the nutcases, can’t you? You’ve actually got someone posting that the fact that New Orleans was below sea level had nothing to do with the flooding. Wow.
As your article mentioned and Jenn just pointed out — the observations of the REACTIONS OF THE RESIDENTS is the key here. I am willing to bet that in 2 years there will not be residents of Iowa suing the federal government because they lived in their trailers for 2 years. There is a different culture, the few rational commenters here not withstanding.
Sure, there were some residents of New Orleans that just started rebuilding — but the majority did not. The majority sat and waited for government. Government will throw cash at anything that will get them votes, so comparing cash payouts is stupid. Just watch the people and how they react. In Iowa, they’re not sitting around waiting for cash and trailers and the majority in New Orleans did.
June 16th, 2008 at 17:59
Admittedly, Witt ran FEMA much better and had experience. Buddy Young, appointed by Clinton, was a Rodeo clown. All presidents put their friends in office. Not saying it is right, just what happens.
FEMA’s standard response time is 72 hours. If they can get there earlier, great, but their work is based on a 72 hour YOYO (You’re On Your Own).
As Jenn pointed out, I don’t hate the people of NO. The mindset, as pointed out by Ogre, is key to the reactions of the people. Bushwack, who was there, had first hand experience in this attitude.
June 16th, 2008 at 18:21
The basis for the reality big dog and his cohorts live in is so far off-base it’s hard to know where to even begin. I’ll just take the last commenter.
“I am willing to bet that in 2 years there will not be residents of Iowa suing the federal government because they lived in their trailers for 2 years. There is a different culture, the few rational commenters here not withstanding”
There probably won’t be an Iowans suing the government for that particular reason, though, based on our experience, some may find a valid reason or two.
Just scope of the disaster area makes this idea absurd. There’s no valid comparison that is fair to Iowa, or NOLA (or MS, etc). To take ONLY new orleans, water sat in 80% of the city for weeks. power, gas, water etc were off for much, much longer. people were not allowed to return in many cases. And even if they did, where in the heck would they live? Where would they work? Ya know, since the companies they worked for were gone too. and the schools. And the restaurants. And the grocery stores, and the gas stations. And the people to work in them.
The level of “don’t get it” you guys have is pretty much insurmountable. and your comment about the “culture” is probably the most revealing part of the above quote. Once you’ve made the decision to somehow separate yourself from those you’ve decided are lesser than you for *ahem* “cultural” reasons, reason pretty much goes out the window.
More important than all that, this nola resident sends out his prayers (and donations) to the folks in the midwest who are going through a form of hell on Earth that we understand only too well. What’s worse, is that it’s only beginning. Because by and large Iowans didn’t have flood insurance and therefore they will certainly need some sort of government bailout to rebuild there homes. (Most people don’t have tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars just sitting in savings accounts) Despite initial claims to the contrary, New Orleans has significantly higher rates of flood insurance participation http://thethirdbattleofneworleans.blogspot.com/2006/03/if-you-tell-lie-big-enough-and-keep_19.html , which, honestly, you would expect since mortgage companies require it in this area….
The reasons why people are in (formeldahyde ridden) trailers after 2+ years is not something that could even remotely be explained in a comment to an ignorant blog post. But if you honestly believe it’s because people are just lazy, you are quite mistaken. And just writing people off as lazy without any knowledge of how and why they got where they makes you look like an assh****.
pretty much everything you guys think you know about Katrina is wrong.
June 16th, 2008 at 18:54
Sharn, tell me exactly when you provided any relief or assistance in New Orleans to Katrina victims? tell me when you have had any interaction with those affected by the disaster…. Please I can’t wait to hear. Until then you are doing nothing but reciting what you have read about.
I am talking about folks sitting on rubble drinking beer and smoking watching us clear out houses, then asking when we are going to get to theirs? Do you think I took my team into NOLA to help those type people? Hell no We helped those that were willing to help themselves, the rest can learn how to swim.
The arrogance of folks that did not participate in the recovery of towns and cities acting like they have a clue is very insulting and Sharn you should STFU about what you do not know.
Roberts last blog post..CONGRATULATIONS!
June 16th, 2008 at 19:10
I live here. My own house in mid-city flooded as did the homes of the vast majority of my family and friends.we snuck back into the city in October and my wife and I gutted it ourselves, just the two of us. We were able to because my parents in a neighboring parish did not flood. We received flood insurance and $2k from FEMA in the immediate aftermath. we ended up selling our flooded home after a wasting money on a worthless contractor and of course losing money on the sale. This after a year of renting an apartment and paying a mortgage on the worthless, flooded home simultaneously. We bought a home in the unflooded area of the city. We helped numerous neighbors with our own two hands when we weren’t working on our own house. And we still are.
I’m not reciting something that I do not know. I live it every day.
June 16th, 2008 at 19:13
Oh and by the way. Thank you for coming down and pitching in. I mean that in all seriousness. I don’t disagree with you being angry at those who pontificate from afar with no on-the-ground perspective. That’s why I commented in the first place.
June 16th, 2008 at 19:24
Iowa didnt need help because Iowa executed THE PLAN and was prepared.
To this date, NO has not organised a plan for the contingency of another hurricane, has had BILLIONS poured into it.
Okay, you’re from NO, riddle me this.
Post HERE or send to GM, the integrated evac plan for NO.I will email to GM the evac and disaster plans for the entire continent of Auatralia, broken down by suburb.
We have plans within plans, wheels within wheels, prepared to a fare thee well. Each suburb has its own precinct and its own emergency service unit which makes preparations for emergencies, and when one hits, all we do is call em out and follow THE PLAN.
When was the last evac drill in NO?
Where is the fastest way out for you?
How far is it form where you live to the local Civil Defence areas?
Who is your Civil Defence commander?
Does your planner have access to helicopters for aerial coordination?If not, why not?
Is the plan available at the local police station?
If not? why not?
Where are your food drops? Water drops?
Has there been a meeting to discuss emergency planning? If not, why nnt?
..and if you cant answer these questions. then the reason NO was such a f**kup will be as plain as the nose on your face.
Lemme give you a hint, and maybe you can take this to mayor “I am the man” Nagin.
NO failed to prepare and got hammered.
Question:
WHAT preparations have been made SINCE Katrina for disaster management?
As a past disaster planner and veteran emergency services officer, allow me to lead you in song
Repeat after me..all together now… and a one..and a two…
Prior preparation prevents piss poor performance.
Here endeth the lesson.
June 16th, 2008 at 19:25
Then I apologize for the outburst, but the fact remains that the cultures ARE DIFFERENT. Those that have been a custom to hand outs, are less likely to fend for themselves than those that have been fending for themselves all along. If you don’t believe it look at the places hit by disasters prior to Katrina and after, look at the poverty level, the political structure and the culture of the populous.
And no it’s not a racial thing, look at the trailer parks hit by tornadoes, the folks that help their neighbors rather than waiting for help usually get very little media play because they are back to normal quicker.
In the area of Slidell we witnessed folks whose home was DESTROYED, offering help to those homeowners that had a chance to recover things. that is the difference between OUTSIDE the City of N.O and inside it.
Selfishness and Criminals… Demorat corrupt politicians that would rather point the finger of blame than lift a finger to help.
This topic is very near and dear to my heart and my sympathy goes out to those still dealing with the fallout, but SOME OF THE BLAME LIES WITHIN! deal with it.
Roberts last blog post..CONGRATULATIONS!
June 16th, 2008 at 20:10
Yo man, I feel ya. You got a plan? I could not believe my eyes. Hurricane coming, oh no! It passed us by, wheh. I awoke to the horror of flooding! My care was for the people, the animals, and I didn’t care who you were.
Fast forward. I’m a racist? To hell with you! (Not you literally.) No, forgive them for they know not of what they speak. Continue. Day in, day out, “You’re a racist!” “You hate black people!”
Oh yeah? Have you met my friends? I’m sure they would disagree! Whatever, whatever, right? So…when are you going to show ME some love?!? When do I get the compassion you seek?
Ya see, when people complain and they call me names, I usually ignore them because of the emotions at the moment. LET IT GO! With all of the false news reports that followed, I’m not concerned anymore. Honest to goodness.
THE MEDIA called me a racist, NO called me a racist, THE DEMOCRATS called me a racist, and why? Political points baby, that’s all it was.
ARE YOU AWARE that out of a town where there is 80% black/20% white, 50% whites died??? DID YOU HEAR THAT??? NO? I wonder why not. What about Mississippi? I did not hear them crying. What about Florida? Yes, they had a hurricane at the same time, but it wasn’t being reported because it wouldn’t help bring down a president.
That is what this whole thing turned into, thanks to the Democrat Party and the media. They don’t give a crap about NO, nor anyone who lives there. Do I? Yes, even after all I have said in anger, I still do. You are still my brothers and sisters, and that will NEVER changed. I sure do hope some hearts and minds do, however…
June 16th, 2008 at 20:27
I’d love to read all these comments but there’s just to much ignorance and lunacy here to dig through. It is interesting that so many folks who couldn’t make it out of New Orleans have so much knowledge and have computers and internet access to spend their day here arguing.
If you’re insulted that someone would point out the differences between the two situations, you need to grow a little thicker skin. You’re just way to easily insulted. But I suspect it has nothing to do with being insulted. I has much more to do with trolling.
Big Dog, I wouldn’t waste much time or effort arguing with morons. That’s just what they want you to do. Their goal is to waste your time and piss you off. Just be happy that they are wasting their time. I learned a long time ago that it doesn’t pay to engage the trolls. Just let them flap their lips and ignore them.
June 16th, 2008 at 22:36
http://www.theindychannel.com/news/16576203/detail.html
June 16th, 2008 at 22:40
Goes to show there are all kinds. There are good and bad everywhere. I think we hit on that about 50 comments ago.
Perhaps they were NO transplantees to Indiana.
That was just a joke so don’t all you NO folks get your panties in a wad.
June 17th, 2008 at 02:36
Big Dog,
There were a lot of very good points made by people from New Orleans that you ignored, in particular, those describing situational factors that impacted the decision to evacuate or to stay, and those that affected the ability to begin rebuilding right away. Those points made must be very difficult to rebut or I imagine you would have.
Also, I pulled the following from comments you made:
How do you subsidize working a place where most folks are not working.
The city has a majority poor population that is used to living off the government, just plain simple facts.
Could you please give me a reference or two to support your contention that the majority of New Orleanians are unemployed and “living off the government.” Since these are indeed “just plain simple facts,” it should be easy to substantiate them.
When you make sweeping generalizations about the people of New Orleans like those quoted above, I get the impression that for you, black=poor=living off the government & waiting around for a handout. I’m guessing that you saw more black faces on TV than white in the aftermath of Katrina, so the rest naturally followed. Stereotyping seems to come easily for you.
For the record, I personally know of a number of people, black and white, who ended up at the Superdome and Convention Center after The Storm. Not one of them was on any kind of public assistance. All had jobs. One was a single mother and full-time university student who had no transportation and nowhere else to go when the university closed the campus apartment building in which she and her son lived. Two stayed because of elderly parents who refused to leave. Two couples I know evacuated to hotels in the downtown area, as they’d done on countless other occasions when storms threatened. (One of these was my long-time neighbor from the U.K.) Three worked for hotels that stayed open to accommodate guests who were unable to secure transportation out of the city. (Many airlines canceled flights long before the weather became a factor. The story is that they didn’t want to fly empty planes in-bound to NOLA.) One was a nurse working in a hospice unit in Eastern NOLA. She volunteered to stay with the sick patients who could not be moved. She had her two children with her. They were rescued and taken to the Dome.
I know many others who stayed and didn’t end up at the Dome or Convention Center. But I can tell you that not a single one of them made that decision with some conscious and cavalier expectation that the government would take care of them. Really, I can’t imagine ANYONE saying to themselves, “Well, I’ll just stay in what may become a living hell and just wait for the government to come rescue and take care of me.” That you or anyone else would believe this is just insane to me. Do you really think people made this kind of choice when they had other, realistic and viable options? People did what they were able to do with the resources they had. There’s only so much food and water you can carry with you to a shelter, only so much you can afford to buy and store. And there was a lot of neighbor helping neighbor going on here, and this when there was very little at hand to help each other with. It’s such a terrible shame that you discount this. What a slap in the face to the many people who helped their neighbors regardless of their own losses. There are so many stories, so many unsung local heroes, but maybe it’s not surprising that you don’t know this because these people have never sought any kind of attention for themselves.
This brings me to one more, very disturbing thing you said about people from New Orleans:
The real workers, the worthwhile people, returned to rebuild.
I’ve heard that kind of language before. The guy who said it had them firing up furnaces for those not deemed “worthwhile.”
LIsaPals last blog post..T’is the Season (Letters, we get letters…)
June 17th, 2008 at 02:40
One more thing…
You and some of your readers may want to check following article out. You’ll either need access to a library journal database or will have to pay for a copy:
What Went Wrong in New Orleans? An Examination of the Welfare Dependency Explanation
by Timothy Brezina
Georgia State University
ABSTRACT: The impact of Hurricane Katrina was especially dramatic in New Orleans, where catastrophic flooding threatened the lives of thousands of residents who did not or could not evacuate before the storm. To explain the large number of residents who did not evacuate in time, some commentators blame a lack of government aid and assistance for the poor while others fault an excessive dependence of the poor on government. Welfare dependency theorists, in particular, contend that a dependency-induced “mentality of helplessness” was prevalent among New Orleans’ poor and helps to account for the incomplete evacuation. To gauge the plausibility of this argument, I use data from a unique survey to examine the characteristics of New Orleanians who were trapped in the flooded city. The findings indicate that, contrary to the expectations of welfare dependency theorists, more than half of the New Orleanians in question were employed full time before the storm and most displayed initiative after the disaster. Furthermore, in multivariate analyses, characteristics highlighted by dependency theorists did not predict the odds of pre-storm evacuation. Other explanations for the incomplete evacuation are explored.
LIsaPals last blog post..T’is the Season (Letters, we get letters…)
June 17th, 2008 at 02:51
LisaPals, sounds like you have been sipping at the professors trough for far too long. Listen, or Read above comments from people that were on the ground. FOLKS that dropped everything, put their lives on hold in order to assist their fellow man no matter what color they were….. A LOT OF PEOPLE DID THAT!
And EVERYONE I talked to when I was there during that time had stories exactly like I had. About people that wondered around waiting for someone to fix everything for them with out them lifting a finger…. while the generalization implies that EVERYONE was like that, I assure you they were not. You can look at the area’s outside NOLA to see WHO and WHAT worked hard to get their area back to normal.
You imply it was racism that kept folks from helping in NOLA? uh well Maybe it had to do with the criminal element as well.
Several poor folks we helped in the 9th ward were helping us help them, but there were just as many sitting around drinking and watching, waiting for us to get to their house…
I could tell you a few stories about the lower 9th ward and St Bernards Perrish but you are too high on your horse to believe or understand the point BD is making. You are conditioned to cry racist, rightwing nazi at everything so you should just leave the discussion to adults.
Roberts last blog post..CONGRATULATIONS!
June 17th, 2008 at 06:06
Sharn said, “The reasons why people are in (formeldahyde ridden) trailers after 2+ years is not something that could even remotely be explained in a comment to an ignorant blog post.”
Gee, too bad. Because I’d really like to hear the explanation. I know I’ve been homeless, and once I decided I didn’t want to live off other people, I managed to find a job and work so I could take care of myself.
June 17th, 2008 at 06:54
Gee, Robert. What does my profession have to do with any of this? How does it impede my ability to understand an event in the city where I was born, raised and have lived all my life? I guess because I teach at a university, (you obviously visited my blog), that automatically makes me an “elitist” in your eyes. Why don’t you tell me exactly what that means to you. All I can see is Argumnentum ad hominem and more stereotyping. You don’t know me. If there had been no link to my blog and therefore no insight into how I earn a living, what would you have resorted to as a basis for refuting my points? Sorry, but from here, it doesn’t look like you really got what I was saying.
What you did do was claim that I’m up here “on my high horse” with my knee-jerk cries of “racism” because I questioned the reasoning in those comments asserting that “most” people here don’t work and are living off the dole, just waiting for people to so everything for them. I simply posited the only line of reasoning I could come up with for Big Dog having reached such a conclusion. Give me a better reason than what I proposed and I’ll gladly concede.
While you’re at it, show me where I implied that racism stopped people from helping folks down here. Quote me to support it. That might be tough because all I did was take issue with the basis for the “welfare” conclusions. I never said or implied anything about people coming from elsewhere to help us, much less what motivated or failed to motivate them. You brought that up. And did I discount a single contribution from anyone from outside of NOLA who came down here and helped us? No, I didn’t. What did I say that made you think I didn’t know about all the people from outside New Orleans who selflessly gave of themselves to help people down here? I simply addressed the notion that people in Iowa helped each other while people in NOLA sat around waiting for outside sources to do the work for them. This couldn’t be more untrue and it’s not an either-or proposition. Many kind-hearted and compassionate people came from all over and helped a traumatized city on the path to rebuilding. We appreciate that more than you apparently know and have never failed to shoe gratitude for that. But we weren’t passive observers who did nothing for ourselves.
What’s really hard to stomach is you telling me that I have to look outside the city to find those people who have “lifted a finger to help themselves.” What is your basis for this claim? Please, Robert, tell me what the difference is between the people who live in New Orleans and the people who live outside the city in places like Slidell. Go ahead. Tell me what you think it is. All of us who live here have a pretty good idea of why you would say that. But why don’t you go ahead tell us the difference as you see it.
For the record, I’m not on any “high horse.” I AM on the ground here. I gutted my house with my own hands and was joined on many occasions by other actual New Orleanians with generous hearts full of love.
All I tried to do is shine some light on a bunch of baseless generalizations made about New Orleans and the people who live here. I give props to Big Dog for conceding a lot of things just as we didn’t try to defend his assertions about local politics that we know to be, for the most part, true.
Finally.we might all do well to refrain from judgment in general until we’ve walked a mile in the other guys shoes.
LIsaPals last blog post..T’is the Season (Letters, we get letters…)
June 17th, 2008 at 07:15
I’ll repeat the question
WHAT PLANS have been made to deal with the next natural disaster?
June 17th, 2008 at 09:46
Sonnabend: The initial plan is, obviously, to get people out of New Orleans in advance of an approaching hurricane. The basis of the plan is for individuals to get a minimum of 90 miles away and preferably much further. There are no shelters within 30 miles of the city operated by the Red Cross as those kinds of fully staffed shelters will not be placed below I-12. The plan pre-katrina was largely informed by previous evacations and by the hurricane Pam exercise in July 2004, described here: http://www.globalsecurity.org/security/ops/hurricane-pam.htm
The most recent similar exercise to hurricane pam was performed in May of 2006. Beyond that, the notion of performing drills will perhaps thousands of coastal residents drive out of theoretical harm’s way obviously won’t work. And people in south LA and MS have performed this task several times since 1998 when Hurricane Georges approached.
one of the key components of these evacuations is when they begin to be called and the notion of “contraflow” where all roads out of the city and away from the cost, including inbound interstate lanes are redirected. Interesting, Houston TX and its surrounding area did not have contraflow in affect for the evacuation from Rita. It was strange seeing empty inbound interstate lanes into Houston on TV.
The big challenge, of course, is what to do with the poor, the indigent, etc. who don’t have independent transportation? The old plan was to get them to the relatively safe confines of the dome and/or convention center. And according to the Pam exercise, these #s were going to be much higher than they actually were for Katrina. And then you would have to wait for busses staged outside of the city to come in and start pulling people out. Now, of course, the plan is to try and pick them up all over the city and bus them out. Not really sure that that is going to work too well. http://www.nola.com/timespic/stories/index.ssf?/base/news-9/1212643879114130.xml&coll=1
Overall, the contraflow evacuation plan during Katrina worked better than it had in the past (Georges, Ivan). “over 80% of the population succeeded in fleeing the area in advance of the storm. source: “http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_preparedness_for_New_Orleans” 80% was far higher than the Pam exercise or any other previous estimate. That wikipedia link has a lot more about the history of evactuation and planning in the area more:http://www.planning.org/katrina/reader/plannningmay2006.htm . Had the levees not broken after being subjected to forces far lower than they had purportedly been designed and build to withstand, we wouldn’t be having this discussion.
the homeland security chief for New Orleans (Civil Defense equivalent) is retired Col Terry Ebbert. He’s retiring, though: http://www.nola.com/timespic/stories/index.ssf?/base/news-9/1213161723207940.xml&coll=1
City of New Orleans evac plans page: http://www.cityofno.com/pg-46-17-state-evacuation-maps.aspx and as published in the local paper:
http://www.nola.com/hurricane/data/nagin_guide.html
State plans: http://www.ohsep.louisiana.gov/plans/plansindex.htm
The contraflow maps and instructions: http://www.contraflowmaps.com/ These are a google maps mashup of the official maps the state publishes. The maps are everywhere, the local papers, grocery stores, etc.
Article about planning and recent “lessons learned” from Katrina evac: http://www.nola.com/hurricane/areweready2006/t-p/index.ssf?/hurricane/areweready2006/stories/evacuation.html
Published 6/1/2008 in the T-P: http://adserver1.harvestadsdepot.com/newotimespic/ss/080150/
The discussion to *prevent* the type of catastrophic loss experienced during Katrina and reduce future vulnerabilty is a different subject from immediate emergency planning. I turn your attention to http://www.levees.org as one potential starting point.
June 17th, 2008 at 10:31
Sonnabend,
The comment system has eaten 3 attempts now to answer your question regarding plans. I assume that due to the # of links required in my detailed reply that the spam prevention system is trapping the post. If it’s in a moderation queue somewhere, BigDog or someone else will have to free one of the attempted responses.
June 17th, 2008 at 10:31
Hindsight can be an awful thing–particularly when people use it to predict the past.
Let’s deal with some facts that have gone unremarked.
90% of the population evacuated. That’s a LOT of people, yes?
Now we’ve heard of rescues from this latest flood. Rescues. That means that some portion of these people who are being lauded didn’t evacuate. What portion? More or less than 10%? That’s an important number. If it’s more than ten percent it means that the people in New Orleans did BETTER than the current crop
And let’s look at the ones who stayed behind.
Some of them felt they could weather the storm–and some did. Among them are the first people who tried to rescue people.
And some of those made the wrong choice. They became those who needed rescue–all at their own fault.
Some were incapable of leaving–for whatever reason. Age, disability, even poverty. They were just unable.
Some of them fared well,