DAR
Lots of things started “as a matter of religion.” We grew out of it.

Bigd: and why does the large proition of marriages take place in religious institutions?>>

DAR
Tradition. No relevance. What matters is the state contract/license. That’s enforceable. Religious claims aren’t enforceable.

Bigd: If a gay wants to marry and a church says no, can the church get in trouble?>>

DAR
No. And the ACLU will defend the church. Freedom of religion and freedom of assembly. I suppose that could change in the future. In a few short years we will see this bigotry against gays as the same as we see bigotry against other groups now.

If a church advertised a service (marriage), and then when an African American couple showed up they said… “oh sorry, we don’t serve blacks,” we see that as wrong. Not sure if that would make them vulnerable to a lawsuit or not.

These things change fast and the gay rights/marriage clock is ticking at about 1.5% per year in the acceptance direction.

Obama’s mother, had she been in the wrong state, could have been arrested for having an interracial child. And now he’s president. Amazing.

Bigd: The only reason we need marriage licenses is so the state can make money off us.>>

DAR
Hardly. An Arkansas marriage license is about $35. And it’s quite fancy (or at least the one in our county is).

D.

DAR
The Constitution allows whatever the supreme court says it allows, no exceptions, and the supreme court says, with great precedent and extensive ruling, you are wrong.

Bigd: nothing in there that would indicate a coach praying with his team is endorsing a religion.>>

DAR
That’s an employee of the state using his position of power over a captive audience and it’s prohibited by the constitution, so says the SCOTUS.

Bigd: This is not a matter of coercion because people are supposed to be free to practice as they see fit,>>

DAR
Not when they are acting as an agent of the state!

As a bumpersticker we sell says:

“Don’t pray in my school and I won’t think in your church.”

Deal?

D.
—————
“It has been argued that to apply the Constitution in such a way as to prohibit the practices respecting the establishing of religious services in public schools is tantamount to hostility of the Government to religion or toward prayer. The Supreme Court has consistently struck down such contention. Nothing, of course, could be more wrong. A manifestation of such hostility would be at war with our national declaration as embodied in the First Amendment guaranty of the free exercise of religion. The First Amendment rests upon the premise that both religion and government can best work to achieve their lofty aim [**26] if each is left free from the other
within its respective spheres.”

–McCollum v. Board of Education, supra; Engel v. Vitale, 370 U.S.
421, 433-4, 82 S. Ct. 1261, 8 L. Ed. 2d 601.

If a gay wants to marry and a church says no, can the church get in trouble? States should be in charge of civil unions and religions in charge of marriage. The only reason we need marriage licenses is so the state can make money off us.

This is not a matter of coercion because people are supposed to be free to practice as they see fit, where they see fit. The only coercion is when children are not allowed to have a prayer when they want, they are forced not to. That is government establishing a rule that does not exist in the Constitution.

DAR
Right. But what you are NOT free to do is use the power of the government to endorse your religion, or to use it to try and coerce others into participating in it. Sorry about that (not really).

D.
————–
Three reasons to support separation of church and state:

1. It prevents churches from encroaching on the state.

2. It prevents the state from encroaching on the churches.

3. It prevents both from encroaching on the people.

DAR
Marriage is a legally binding state contract that has absolutely nothing to do with religion whatsoever. Some people like to pretend that it does, for traditional or emotional reasons, but this is of no legal importance or significance to anyone except for those who chose to use their imagination and play make believe.

Notice, the gay marriage issue says nothing about what happens in churches. This is because it is of no relevance. No one cares. Unlike the old days, churches are powerless. The state rules. What people care about is what happens in the court house, not the church. Governments exist, and have power to enforce contracts. Gods, do not.

D.
——————
“Perhaps you could tell us a model family in the Bible that I can take as a guide? One husband, just one wife, a few children, born by natural means, no murder, no incest, no polygamy.” –Steven Carr

DAR
Got anything fresh, besides pure fantasy, to back that up?

Didn’t think so.

D.

DAR
I agree. And only the same restrictions as any other club. A good lesson in “freedom of assembly” for the young citizens.

Except it seems these clubs are required to have an adult, a teacher, to be a “sponsor” (this is also the case at the University level). I suppose this makes sense, someone to supervise a bit and be responsible that poor, unsafe or illegal decisions aren’t made for a “school approved club.”

These kids at the local high school did have a sponsor, but the group was denied by the principal, unquestionably on religious grounds. It’s a very religious town, not worth fighting it I guess, so they didn’t.

D.