At my house, we love to wait up with Bigdog and all his new articles. Love ya

I still would like to know how you feel about the Halloween decoration.

As for the Crescent and Star, those were examples asking, if Muslims found one or Jews found the other offensive, would that hold the same weight as the noose?

I appreciate your respect for the Flag and you and I agree on that point. I don’t really care what the reason behind burning a Flag is, it is wrong. But we could ask, what is the reason behind hanging the noose? If it is intimidation then it is wrong but maybe we should ask what the motive actually is.

Mine is a protest but as I stated, you make valid points and I will rethink it.

First, since we live in the US, so let’s stay focused on US issues and eliminate the issue of the Cresent and the Star of David. If there was more of a history (current or past) in this country of using those symbols as a divisive tool (say a’la Germany’s WWII use of the star to id Jews) then there may be application, but I don’t think they’ve risen to the same level inside our borders. I also am drawing a line between burning the US flag on US soil by a US citizen and the burning of the US flag on foreign soil.

Second, obviously, The US flag symbolically represents all of the US citizens and our government. And burning a US flag is a form of violent speech, that’s for sure and it should be a wake-up call for every US citizen. I too believe that burning the flag should be outlawed – if only to strengthen the reasoning behind that form of speech. Civil disobedience is mere tripe if your not willing to risk your own freedom’s to make your argument.

It’s too easy for someone to simply burn the US flag when they feel like inciting other citizens, like yourself, for the flimsiest of reasons. If one is to burn the flag, there had better well be a valid point to it, one that clearly articulates the reasoning behind that speech. And US citizens should question why the flag is being burned and understand the issues (and allow the courts to weigh the merits of that argument).

* I should note that I find it totally offensive when people do not take care of their US flag when it’s being displayed. How many torn and weathered flags did you see months after the initial round of post-9/11 patriotism. The little flags attached to cars we’re especially desecrated – and was it to make a point? no, simply out of a combination of ‘patriotism’, followed by laziness and apathy (patriotism in quotes since most US folks did nothing more than stick a flag or bumber sticker on their car). You stick a US flag on your car – you’d better take care of it.

Finally, with regard to the noose, last time I checked no one is using a noose as a symbol of solidarity as a people or their government. It has only one physical use, and that’s as an instrument of death. As a symbolic form of speech, at best, it plainly references the lynching of (primarily) black US citizens, and at worst, it is a direct threat of violence against a specific target (more worse still, is when it crosses from speech to action). A target whose sole offense is the color of their skin, not their politics, or their actions/deeds/character even, simply their skin color.

The burning of the flag is a political form of speech – yes, it may involve a form of violence, but there is (or should be at least) a valid point being raised and if not, then yes, the ‘speaker’ should be held accountable. The display of a noose, however, holds no such potential beyond speaking about violence, fear, hatred based on skin color. It’s sole purpose is to incite hatred or to cause fear in those who have historically been targeted.

There’s no non-violent slippery slope for which the noose can slide down as a symbol – regardless of who used it upon whom, it represents death. And it’s also primarily a racist tool (in the US anyway). Yes, it’s been used on whites, but not even closely (or even as recently) to the same extent as it had been used on blacks. It’s most recent and common usage has been as a tool for racist murders.

I would not wear a noose nor would I wear a burning flag lapel pin. I do not find the noose offensive, not because I think that lynchings were OK, but because as long as this country allows people to burn a flag then people should be allowed to display a noose. Burning a flag is hate speech to the men and women who have defended it and to the families of those who have been carried under it.

I think lynchings were a horrible thing and I would not condone such acts nor would I allow one to happen were I present. I have no hatred for people because of their color. That is a stupid thing to hate someone for. However, I think we are on slippery ground when we say that a noose is offensive because it brings up memories of lynchings.

If we do then what about the Christians who were slaughtered by the Muslims prior to and during the Crusades? Do we not allow Islam to display the Crescent and Star because it is offensive. Muslims hate Jews and blame them for a lot of the woes in the Middle East. Do we disallow the Star of David because it reminds Muslims of the wars they have lost to the Jews.

If we say that one despicable act or display is free speech we have to allow all despicable acts (so long as they do not break the law) as free speech. Malcom X espoused killing white people for the cause, do we ban the X that was very popular because of that?

I would be happy to say people should not hang a noose especially if it is done to intimidate a group of people but then I want the flag burnings to stop because they are hurtful to people. I also think we are taking things too far. A family was forced, for fear of their own safety, to take down a Halloween decoration that featured a hanging body, one they had put up for years.

You say the noose represents cruel and cold murders. I say that the noose is nothing more than the item that was used. Will we ban trees next because that is what people were hung from? I believe that a burning flag is disrespectful to the men and women in uniform and it causes just as much emotion to veterans as the noose does to blacks.

To answer you other question, I put it up when not long ago when people started saying nooses were a hate crime and I decided to leave it until Halloween after I read about the family that had to take down the decoration.

I hope this answers your questions. BTW, I do not believe I said you attacked. The only one is meat head. He is vile and actually quite weird.

I am curious though, did you just put the noose up on the site or has that been here for some time? I can’t help but think that I’m sure you’d wear the flag as a lapel pin, but how about that noose? would you be willing to wear it as a lapel pin in a professional setting? When visiting troops? When visiting a school?

Yes, for you it may simply be about free speech, but for many it represents cruel and cold murders – murders for which there have never been any convictions, just a bunch of postcards to commemorate the event.

I do not recall shouting down anyone. I simply made the point that meat head lacks the knowledge and experience that I have with regard to the service so he is unqualified to make assessments of my support. There might be no rule regarding the service but my rule is, I do not have to take crap from someone who lacks the knowledge to make an informed assessment about my support. Until he has that knowledge he can keep his pie hole shut with regard to how I support our men and women in uniform.

You have your right to an opinion and if this site is offensive to you there are millions of others for you to read. As for my noose, free speech and all that.

You are correct though, I made an assumption that you are a liberal and I have no proof of it one way or the other. For meat head’s benefit, this is not a lie, I assumed something not in evidence.

The fact is, Cleland blew himself up doing something unwise. My statement about it does not mean I spit on him. I respect John Kerry’s service to this country but that does not mean I spit on him when I say he disgraced his uniform, his service, and his country by accusing, falsely, fellow service members of atrocities. He threw his medals over a fence and he most likely received a dishonorable discharge for his anti wear antics while still in the reserves. This might explain why he will not release his record. That does not mean he is spat upon. It means he opened himself to scrutiny when he did what he did. Cleland opened himself to scrutiny as well.

I opened myself to scrutiny for my remarks but I will be damned if that scrutiny includes comments about my support for the troops or veterans, especially from someone who lacks sufficient knowledge to make such a claim.

At best, this thread is a free class on how to shout down your opponent while pushing your service record as a trump card, with you being the ‘teacher’. But sadly for you, you don’t get to assign homework. If i had one iota of respect for you beyond your service to this country I might be inclined to actually push forward a debate with you, but the truth of it is, is that you haven’t earned any of my respect beyond your record of wearing a uniform. You want to play it both ways: shout down the opponent, call them names, play with half-truths of what was said in a thread as well as to what may have occurred in the past re Cleland’s record and then ask another to do actual truthful research as if this thread merits any actual debate – as if your whole forum is some bastion of considered thought – this site, now replete with a noose.

no, it’s not that easy for you. Besides the fact that I only called upon you to show me the rule where prior service is required for anyone to open their pie hole (as if that’s an invitation for debate), I have yet to espouse any of the liberal points that you’d like me to research in the constitution – so what makes you think I believe they are in that doc? What specifically have I said to you that paints me as a liberal, or at the least someone who pushes their doctrines?

My comment was directed right at him as in “until YOU [meathead]. Certainly people have a right to question anything, except of course, me questioning the attack on Raven. However, I have every right to say that if he has never served then he does not know what I have done and he does not know what I have done since and I have every right to tell him unless he has those experiences then he may not draw the conclusion he did about me, and using his logic, he lied as well. He has a right to free speech but I do not have to tolerate it. There is nothing that says I have to agree or that I may not admonish. Those are the cold hard facts. There are many things about me that people could use to point out negatives. My support for our military and veterans is not one of them and I will not allow a low life maggot to go unfettered in this arena. If you want to question my service or support for veterans go ahead but make informed decisions.

The fact is Cleland was hurt by his own error in judgment regardless of my choice of words.

As for the Constitution. You make a good point so here is your homework. Show me where the Constitution says there is a right to abortion (don’t tell me it is inferred, show me the word abortion), show me where we are allowed to have a department of education. Show me where the document allows judges to make law from the bench and show me where the words separation of Church and state appear. Since you want to invoke that document then be prepared to show all the other things libs demand that are not there.

You threw the proverbial grenade over at the other forum, which then solicited the comments you wished to solicit: grenades tossed back at you.

then you come back here and talk about how you went over there to stick up for your friend and had nothing but insults thrown back in your face – being called a troll due to your Cleland comment.

and now you state: “I served this country and until you can say the same sit down and shut your stupid pie hole. ”

Please point out that rule to me in the constitution.

When meat head learns to address things appropriately and quits with the you lied and are a coward then maybe he will get somewhere but this maggot has no right to question anything about my loyalty to the troops. How many times has he been to Walter Reed, how many packages has he sent them? How much has he done?