Preview Of Government Run Health Care

It has been stated that if you like the Department of Motor Vehicles or the Post Office then you will love Obamacare. The government cannot run anything efficiently and there will be lines and denied claims (Medicare is the biggest denier of claims) so the question is why do some want the government involved in health care?

In Detroit word got out that government was giving away $3000 to people in order to help them make ends meet. This is part of the stimulus (if the stimulus worked these people would not need the money). Chaos ensued, fights broke out and people were mobbing the place.

Imagine what it will be like when they can get free health care.

This is a picture from the Detroit handout. Just think, if Obama gets his way this could be your doctor’s office.

This is the one page “Small Bill” proposed by Republicans. It is much better.

Big Dog

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52 Responses to “Preview Of Government Run Health Care”

  1. Blake says:

    The “Small Bill indeed makes much more sense, and will therefore be unacceptable to liberals who want to nanny us to death.
    I would vote for that small bill in a heartbeat, but I refuse to abide by any of the provisions in the Baucus Bill- most are unconstitutional anyway.

  2. Darrel says:

    Bigd: “This is the one page “Small Bill” proposed by Republicans.”>>

    DAR
    I only needed to read #1. Tax cuts again… mostly for the rich. One trick ponies these guys… they know one song, and they even stay on the same bloody verse.

    If they gave a flip about healthcare and the millions suffering, and they obviously do not, why didn’t they do anything about it during their many recent years of power?

    Republicans have for some reason chosen to make themselves irrelevant, again.

    Bigd: “if you like the… Post Office then you will love Obamacare.>>

    DAR
    You should learn some new slogans. I have refuted that one several times. Americans love their poste:

    “Independently measured customer satisfaction scores show that 94% of residential customers rated their experience with the Postal Service as excellent, very good, or good.”

    http://www.usps.com/history/anrpt05/

    Bigd: “Imagine what it will be like when they can get free health care.”

    DAR
    Oh my gosh, it would be like the “free” roads, free fire protection, free police, free schools, free parks, free libraries…

    I just can’t imagine what that would be like! Hell on earth indeed! LOL.

    D.
    ————–
    Bob Dole: Health Care Will Pass, GOP Should Be Open To Reform

    • Blake says:

      Bob Dole has been known to be wrong- you only like him ’cause he’s agreeing with you.

    • Blake says:

      #5 on the Small Bill would save 54 billion dollars alone- that’s not a bad thing D- that is savings on tort reform- you know- “Change We Need”- not change we do not need.
      If you were not so bolted tight to a failed and flawed progressive philosophy, you could see this.

    • In on it not says:

      Free healthcare? Wait a minute; some one pays for it. That isn’t free. That is socialist health care.

      Oh my gosh, it would be like the “free” roads, free fire protection, free police, free schools, free parks, free libraries…

      I can imagine what that would be like; USSR.
      Or as brian-dead says, hell on earth.

      And no, I don’t “give a flip” about anyone’s health care except my own. You are the lip-po-crite to claim you care about my health, or anyone’s.

      Only the rich pay taxes. It is not possible to give tax-cuts to those who don’t pay tax. Rich people generate wealth. Poor people earn wages. Sometime. Who pays them? The rich.
      It is ultimately logical that the wealthy AND ONLY THE WEALTHY should have ALL the tax reductions.

      Rebutt that, pea-brain. Oh, that’s right! You Know This Issue! You…read the first sentence, and then got bored!
      That makes you some kind of (liberal) expert, don’t it now?

      • Darrel says:

        INON: “some one pays for it. That isn’t free.”

        DAR
        I know. That’s why I put “free” in quotation marks.

        INON: “It is not possible to give tax-cuts to those who don’t pay tax.”>>

        DAR
        Actually it is. As Bigd pointed out in this very thread, you give them a credit. Same result.

        • Big Dog says:

          No, a tax credit is not a tax cut. In the context of the small bill they are just saying what people pay for insurance should not be taxable income. It is a simple concept.

          Those who pay no taxes cannot have their taxes cut. Another simple concept.

      • Schatzee says:

        I love your honesty! I don’t really care about anyone else’s healthcare either – I think we should all take care of ourselves. It’s not the government’s job and it’s not mine. And if anyone can take one look at the roads and see how much money is NOT going there, you know the same will happen with healthcare. They just want more of our money to squander.

  3. Big Dog says:

    I have already shown you that the tax cuts are not for the rich. You have, of course, discounted this to keep spewing your tired and discredited pablum. The tax cuts have been better for the middle class. Not only that, you claim to have read the first paragraph but you did not. The tax cut you discuss is a tax break in the form of tax credits for people who do not have insurance or that buy their own insurance (those without employer provided). This would, as Obama likes to say, level the playing field. The tax credits are no different than giving tax credits under the Democrat bill except that these credits would allow people to buy insurance and provide them with the same break people with employer provided plans get.

    You are absolutely wrong on this and are so wedded to your liberal ideology that you failed to grasp what it was. Do you really think rich people need a tax credit to buy insurance? Hell, most rich people do not need insurance. Bill Gates could afford to buy the hospital.

    But you missed it but in your usual arrogant style, you dismissed it with the “I only needed to read the first paragraph to know it was a loser.” This coming from the person who claims others do not read what he links to.

    Who cares what Bob Dole said? He sits on the couch with the global warming nuts. And tell Bob that the GOP is open to reform. We have been calling for it for years and have been blocked by people like Obama who voted against every measure of reform put forth by Republicans. We want reform, not overhaul.

    Maybe this is why you and the libs worry about guns. You can only force people to do so much before they resist and a lot of people have the means to do just that.

    • Darrel says:

      Bigd: “I have already shown you that the tax cuts are not for the rich.”>>

      DAR
      You said that but no one believes it. You also said that the bottom half pay no taxes, so by definition, tax cuts are for the rich and exclude the poor.

      And this just in, Red states in worst healthcare shape, public option would shovel even more money from blue states to mooching, welfare red states.

      Bigd: “The tax cuts have been better for the middle class.”>>

      DAR
      Without defining “middle class” this means nothing. But we do know, as has been shown over and over, the very rich received vastly more cuts, in raw dollars.

      Bigd: “you claim to have read the first paragraph but you did not.”>>

      DAR
      You’re right. I said #1 actually but I only read the bolded part. The first sentence. Once I saw that they wanted to fiddle with taxes I got bored and stopped.

      If anything is clear at this point, to the people who have studied this issue (as I have) it is that fiddling with tax cuts is NOT going to solve America’s Health care problems. Not even close. Not even close to close. It’s laughable.

      Bigd: “Who cares what Bob Dole said? He sits on the couch with the global warming nuts.”>>

      DAR
      And he was your main dude only 13 years ago. How soon we forget. And now, in his wisdom, he has concern about the earth and the future for his grand kids? Not such a bad thing.

      Hey! I bought a Prius day before yesterday. I think I will go and play with it now. I am going to save 2,000 gallons of gas (and about $6,000) in the next five years. If gas goes up a bit, it may even pay for itself in five years. In my first 30 miles I have gotten 52.9 mpg (rather than the 25 I was getting). Happy days.

      D.

      • Blake says:

        I am so glad you are saving more gas for my pickup- thanks D- I think I will fill her up and aimlessly drive- perhaps a five hour jaunt to the hill country, and another five back, just because I can.
        Life in the US is good, if the liberals don’t screw it up for the rest of us.
        Keep saving that gas for me, D.

      • Blake says:

        Only people with old-timer’s think this Global warming is more than a fart in a windstorm- all the rest of us know when someone’s peeing down our back and trying to tell us it’s raining.

      • Darrel says:

        You keep driving Blake, cause if inflation comes (and the Bigd’s always right, right?) then that four/five dollar gas is going to make my Prius pay for itself EVEN quicker.

        BLK: “Global warming… a fart in a windstorm”>>

        DAR
        Well you just keep sniffing your own toots there cowboy. I’ll go with the best science, as usual. If you find a GW skeptic argument you think you can make a case for, do pass it along. Unlike you, I am always open to changing my beliefs, no exceptions.

        D.

        • In on it not says:

          Global warming is a fart and you are the sucker that bought the hybrid.

          The best science says it is a hoax. The hoax-tooters have you card, cowgirl.

        • Blake says:

          You just go with the “best science” you can agree with, goat herder, perhaps you can refine their scat- I will do what I want because I can- BTW- what’s your last name? I’ll need that if I am to charge you for my health coverage, as you say I am- otherwise, I guess I will have to continue paying for my own, because I can.

        • Darrel says:

          INON: “The best science says it [climate change] is a hoax.”>>

          DAR
          Actually, all of the science says it’s not.

          “Since 2007, no scientific body of national or international standing has maintained a dissenting opinion.”

          “With the release of the revised statement by the American Association of Petroleum Geologists in 2007, no remaining scientific body of national or international standing is known to reject the basic findings of human influence on recent climate change.” –ibid

          So it is not possible for you to be more wrong.

          Good job! That’s harder to do than people realize.

          INON: “you are the sucker that bought the hybrid.”

          DAR
          And I am the sucker who is getting 50 miles to the gallon.

          D.
          —————-
          “The National Academy of Sciences says that this level [40 MPG] is not even technically achievable.”
          — Vice President Dan Quayle arguing against suggestions to raise fuel efficiency standards for American automobiles. But Richard A. Meserve, who served as the chairman of the academy’s study on fuel efficiency, said that Mr. Quayle had misunderstood a report by the academy that had discussed whether cars that efficient would be attractive to American buyers. (New York Times, 8/29/92)

          Good you guys are dumb.

          • Big Dog says:

            All is a completely inclusive modifier and it is not true. There are more and more scientists who are questioning this farce.

            • Darrel says:

              Bigd: All is a completely inclusive modifier>>

              DAR
              Yes it is. Let me put it this way:

              All “scientific bod[ies] of national or international standing [agree with] the basic findings of human influence on recent climate change.” –ibid

              It may be the case that you and Inonit are right about climate science and that *all* of the scientific organizations are wrong.

              I just don’t think that reasonable people will think this is very likely to be the case.

              D.

            • Blake says:

              To be correct, that sentence should read: “All scientific bodies of national or international standing agree that there may or may not be substantial human influence on any recent climate change, it is too early to say with certainty.”
              Then it would be accurate.

            • Darrel says:

              BLK: ““All scientific bodies of national or international standing agree that there may or may not…”

              DAR
              Could a statement be more wishy washy? Why would any group make such a worthless statement? You are playing childish word games. Wishing things does not make them true.

              As I cited, with reference, “no scientific body of national or international standing is known to reject the basic findings of human influence on recent climate change.”

              Not one. This is actually an astonishing level of consensus and agreement.

              If you would like to try and support your assertion you can do this by citing a “scientific body of national or international standing” that does reject this basic finding.

              Godspeed.

              D.

            • Blake says:

              “Wishing things does not make them true…” how true- Quit wishing, and look around. Life is making all of you look the fool.

            • Big Dog says:

              Here are some scientists who are skeptical

            • Darrel says:

              The task was to find a single “scientific body of national or international standing” that rejects the basic findings of human influence on recent climate change.

              It’s telling that there isn’t a single one.

              They all agree with me (or rather, I agree with them). Conspiracy?

              The fellow who slapped together your little “American thinker” bit, wrote:

              “Skeptics have been saying for decades that the warming from about 1978 to 1998,… was probably due to natural causes”

              Skeptics have been saying that for “decades?”

              Really?

              D.

        • Blake says:

          You are also the sucker who bought beta technology, and I bet those batteries are going to be expensive, plus a tax for disposal, and you will have to take it to a factory rep to be fixed, and Toyotas are the most expensive to fix.
          Better hope it doesn’t crater on you- that’s a lot of money to spend on unproven (over the long haul) Technology, and besides, only a true sucker buys new.
          But as we have seen from the election, there are plenty of suckers.
          I bet not so many now.

        • Darrel says:

          BLK: You are also the sucker who bought beta technology,>>

          DAR
          It was beta in the 90’s. First year was 1997.

          BLK: and I bet those batteries are going to be expensive,>>

          DAR
          I talked to the mechanic and he said the batteries in the ’97 models are still going strong.

          “expected failure rate for life of vehicle (they used 180,000 miles) was less than 1%”

          Link

          Used ones, from wrecks, go for $400-$1000. Since I am saving $100 per month, every month, on gas, I think this will be quite workable.

          And note:

          “Toyota… has only needed to replace 0.003 percent of its hybrid batteries out of warranty on the second generation Prius.

          Toyota announced drastic cuts to the cost of replacement batteries for their hybrids… dropped prices from ~$5,500 to $3,000.” Link.

          BLK: plus a tax for disposal,>>

          DAR
          I hope so. You know how us liberal love taxes. I’ve read that the batteries are 80% recyclable.

          BLK: Toyotas are the most expensive to fix.>>

          DAR
          Not really. I have an ’85 Toyota pickup.

          BLK: a lot of money to spend on unproven>>

          DAR
          I paid $10k. It Blue books for $13-14k. Dealers are hungry.

          BLK: only a true sucker buys new.>>

          DAR
          I completely agree. I’ve never had a new vehicle.

          D.

      • Schatzee says:

        Just for the record – climate change does happen. It’s cyclical and has been going on before we had automobiles and other things that are being blamed now. It happens on other planets. It is the fact that climate change is MAN-MADE that is a hoax. CO2 is a biproduct of human expiration and necessary for plants to exist. Plants provide O2 in our environment necessary for us to exist. These people are not using science to make these things up – they are using LSD or something. Climate change exists, and it will exist whether or not you drive a Prius. It’s the cyclical nature of our climatological environment.

        • Darrel says:

          Schat: “It is the fact that climate change is MAN-MADE that is a hoax.”>>

          DAR
          Dear Schatzee, in 2004 a geologist and historian of science, Naomi Oreskes conducted a study of the scientific literature on climate change. “The author analyzed 928 abstracts of papers from refereed scientific journals between 1993 and 2003,… none of the abstracts disagreed with the consensus position, which is the reality of anthropogenic climate change.”

          Link.

          This is my reason for believing that humans are influencing the earth’s climate. What’s yours?

          D.

  4. Big Dog says:

    The CBO affirmed the savings on tort reform yesterday.

  5. Big Dog says:

    No, you don’t believe it. As for red states, take out the very blue big cities and see who is mooching. If you remove the liberal areas of most states they do just fine.

    You are saying the top 60% are the wealthy? Get real. As for the bottom 40%, they pay no income taxes (and SS and Medicare are investments in future benefits).

    The treasury understands this. Also, the plan we are discussing has nothing to do with tax cuts for the wealthy, it is a tax credit so people without insurance can buy it.

    You are, as usual, wrong.

    • Darrel says:

      Bigd: “the plan we are discussing… is a tax credit>>

      DAR
      That’s nice. This just funnels much needed government revenue to the pockets of the private insurance greed machine so the band can keep marching on while playing the same tune. As a solution for the actual problems it’s completely unworkable, hopeless, laughable, garbage.

      If there is anything to this blatant government subsidy to private insurance, why didn’t the republican do anything about this when they had all power and were ramming their tax cuts for the rich through? (which they did twice, using the 51 vote reconciliation in the Senate)

      D.

  6. Big Dog says:

    Inflation will come, and many economists are saying so. The price of gold keeps going up for a reason.

    Darrel, I can appreciate that you follow whatever science you choose to believe but don’t pretend you are willing to change your mind about anything.

    You think that all you believe is right and that no one else is intelligent enough to understand.

    Believe what you want but don’t BS us with the changing mind stuff.

    • Darrel says:

      Bigd: “don’t pretend you are willing to change your mind about anything.”>>

      DAR
      I will change my mind about anything. All I care about (with regard to claims) is that my beliefs are as close in line with reality/truth as possible. I’ll believe anything as long as it’s true. No exceptions. If your beliefs are better, more accurate, true, I’ll discard mine and switch to yours so fast it will make your head spin. And nothing would make me happier because I would have learned something new.

      Guns make America safer? Global warming a hoax? Don’t care. If these are true, I want to believe them and will believe them. Let’s see your arguments. If they’re good, I accept them.

      It wasn’t always this way, I learned this (how to examine things skeptically) about age 27. Before that I often believed things because I wanted to believe in them, just like most people.

      As the verse says at the top of our website (because I put it there):

      “Test all things; hold fast what is good.”
      1 Thess. 5:21

      The implication being, discard the rubbish. This is how science works and why it is so powerful at discovering reality. (It’s also why religion is so notoriously bad about discovering reality, doesn’t change/improve to accommodate itself to new information).

      It’s very difficult for humans to change their beliefs and to even be open to changing them. Most people don’t bother. It’s much easier not to. They find it much easier to go to absurd ends to support the beliefs they have emotionally attached themselves to, truth be damned. This is probably the most astonishing thing I have ever learned. Most people aren’t the slightest bit interested in actually believing things because they are true. Given the choice between a comforting falsehood that fits with their tinker-toy collage of beliefs and accepting an uncomfortable truth that causes trouble with this interconnected mess, they choose, the emotional comfort.

      I try to avoid that.

      There are well understood evolutionary reasons for this. For one, people get confused and think they ARE their beliefs (just as some people think they are their cars or their clothes, this is why they spend so much time, money and effort on both). If you attack/confront someone’s beliefs, especially the irrational cultic beliefs that seem to gather around religion and politics, people take this as an attack/confrontation on THEM. They think they ARE their beliefs. Without their beliefs, they don’t know who they are. It’s rather pitiful, but there it is.

      Anyway, yes, I will change my belief about anything. I’ve done it many times. All you have to have is good reasons.

      D.
      —————–
      “Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking; where it is absent, discussion is apt to become worse than useless.”
      –Leo Tolstoy, “On Life and Essays on Religion

      • Blake says:

        So Tolstoy was a Free thinker? That goes far in explaining you Darrel, and why you are excessively verbose, extremely boring, and when you get to the nub of the argument, usually wrong.

  7. Big Dog says:

    The so called savings in the Dem plan is close to the same amount. The people who know better understand that it will cost a lot of money, more than they say and certainly more than we have. It will not break even (unless they ration care), it will not save money and it will be no where near what the CBO graded.

    If we are with the weather metaphors then the financial burden of the government plan will be a tsunami.

    • Darrel says:

      Bigd [before]:The CBO affirmed the savings on tort reform yesterday.>>

      Bigd [now]: “it will be no where near what the CBO graded.”>>

      DAR
      You may think about why you would quote the CBO as a reputable source (which it is) and then moments later say their numbers can’t be trusted.

      • Blake says:

        The CBO can only refine the numbers they are given- when liberals skew their numbers, or outright lie about the numbers, then the CBO estimate will reflect those lies.
        It is simple logic, D- why are you incapable of following that?

  8. Big Dog says:

    There was no tax cut for the rich unless you can find a bill by that name then you really should stifle. Democrats voted for the tax cuts as well so it was not purely Republican.

    You keep moving the goal posts Darrel. The credit will allow people to use pre tax dollars to purchase insurance. This does not benefit the insurance companies because they will get the premium whether it is pre or post tax.

    You have no problem with tax credits in the Dem bill and you have no trouble with Americans being told they MUST buy insurance (revolution time) but you think it is bad to “level the playing field” so people can buy insurance.

    BTW, Republicans introduced a number of things to fix the insurance problem and they were opposed by Democrats like your Resident. Much like the financial collapse, the Dems kept pushing some things and denying others and then are pointing fingers.

    You really need to remove the Kool-Aid IV.

    • Darrel says:

      Bigd: This does not benefit the insurance companies>>

      DAR
      Of course it does. You said this tax credit (gov. subsidy) “so people without insurance can buy it.” That is a direct funnel of government money so more people can buy into the bloated, wasteful, unnecessary, private insurance greed machine. Dumb.

      Bigd: you think it is bad to “level the playing field” so people can buy insurance.>>

      DAR
      Never said that. I will say that fiddling with taxes and subsidizing insurance companies does not address the problem. In fact, worse than that, it perpetuates it.

      D.

      • Blake says:

        Darrel- were you raised by communists? Insurance companies are SUPPOSED to make money- if they do not, they go out of business (can you comprehend?)- because while there are times where they make record profits, there are also Hurricane Katrinas, where they must pay out a lot.
        Suppose the H1N1 strikes in a big way, and hospitalizes a majority of this country?
        You think even the government can take care of all of us, you are a fool- we need private insurance, and we need it to be viable and healthy, which the government will not allow if it gets into the public option.
        The Republican small bill is so much more easily understood, and compatible to our free market philosophy than the liberal takeover of healthcare you seem to favor.

      • Darrel says:

        BLK: “we need private insurance”>>

        DAR
        Actually, we don’t.

        D.

        • Blake says:

          You quote that fart Grayson? oh please-only the free thinkers would try to hold him up as someone to quote.
          Try again.

  9. Big Dog says:

    I did not say the CBO and its numbers cannot be trusted. What I am saying is that the CBO can only analyze what Congress gives them. The numbers they provided are the numbers based on the papers that they received and were asked to grade. Once a real bill is written (there is not an actual bill yet) and it is graded it will cost a lot more because the CBO will have to take in to account all the things that have yet to be presented.

    It is very simple. They can only grade what they are given and they have not been given everything.

  10. Big Dog says:

    Medicare is more wasteful and has the highest rejection rate of all insurances. So you complain about the private insurance and say Medicare is great.

    The reality is, it costs more, there is more fraud and waste and they reject more claims than other insurances. Not to mention their cost per patient is higher.

    Tax credits are part of the Dem plan. If there will be no government option and people will be forced to buy health insurance they will do it from private companies which means that money still goes to them.

    • Darrel says:

      I see lots of claims. I don’t see any attempt to back any of it up. What’s your basis for Medicare having “the highest rejection rate of all insurances?”

      Higher cost per patient, if true, is understandable. Old people use a lot more medical care. Put everyone on medicare? Costs go way down. No greed machine to feed. No CEO getting a billion dollar parachute. No 460,000 employees working to increase profits by denying people coverage.

      Tax credits are “part” of the Dem plan, but they are hardly the main, #1 plank, as with your little one pager.

      If there is no government option and people are forced to continue to feed the greed machine then we will simply come back to this problem in ten years when family premiums are $30,000 per year and half the population has no coverage. That’s what we did last time. Kick the can down the road. Soon the problem will be so bad even a republican won’t be able to pretend he can’t see it.

      Someday America will deal with this ticking time bomb, it’s not an option. And some day we will go metric.

      D.

      • Big Dog says:

        My basis is the AMA’s own report. You can see the chart here and you can click through to the entire AMA report.

        I am already on the metric system. The military uses it and so does the world of medicine. Health care has been addressed for years and obstructive Democrats like Obama rejected it.

        Now it is urgent but will not take place until after the next presidential election. Why do we have to pass this NOW but it took 6 months for him to pick a dog and it is taking months for him to review the request for troops in Afghanistan? We are fighting that war NOW, health care reform is over 3 years away if it passes today.

  11. Big Dog says:

    I think it is great that you own a Prius. You are free to drive what you want and the rest of us are free to drive what we want and no one should tell us otherwise.

    You drive a Prius because it fits your needs. I drive a Jeep because it fits mine. I have to report to work no matter what the weather and the weather here is a bit nastier than in Arkansas.

    So as long as you do not think you have the right to tell anyone else what to drive then good for you and I hope you enjoy your car.

    If you feel the need to decide what the rest of us should drive then you need to go someplace where that is allowed.

  12. Schatzee says:

    From all news reports I’ve heard, this event was a complete and utter disaster. Like yelling “FIRE” in a crowded theater, only backwards. LOL