DAR
No, they’re extremely learned. But truth does seem to have a liberal bias.

BIGD: Only 90 answered that they had not gone elsewhere for treatment.>>

DAR
No, you have it backwards. Only 90, of the 18,000 said they went to the US. And only 20 of those (.11%), did so for medical reasons.

Bigd: Isn’t it against the law in Canada to do that?>>

DAR
No. Don’t be ridiculous. Not only can they come to the US when they want (of course), they can also go to Cuba, and do so all of the time. Free country and all that ya know. Wish we had that option.

Bigd: If so, why would anyone admit to committing a crime?>>

DAR
Cause it’s not a crime huckleberry. LOL.

Good grief.

(My Canadian wife is rolling her eyes now and asking me to please stop “playing with the morons.”)

D.

Only 90 answered that they had not gone elsewhere for treatment. Isn’t it against the law in Canada to do that? If so, why would anyone admit to committing a crime?

DAR
Blake is careful not to even cite his reference here. He’s knows it’ll get roasted.

BLK: “…of Canadian healthcare vs. American (existing) healthcare, and it wasn’t even close.>>

DAR
Well here is: “The most comprehensive study that was ever under taken on the two health care systems.” It was done “jointly by Harvard University and McMasters University:

Overall, 14 of the 38 studies showed better outcomes in Canada, while only 5 favored the U.S. The remaining 19 studies showed equivalent or mixed results in the two nations. When the studies were combined statistically, the mortality rate was 5% lower in Canada.”

Link

DAR
So unlike your unreferenced “review” you watched on the Tee Vee, they did find it was “close,” but in fact, Canada’s results were a little better.

BLK: the interminable wait for care of any kind.>>

DAR
Already roasted, over and over. Hey Blake [you freeloading no insurance mooch], when you get sick and have a big health expense, what is your wait time going to be? Will it be based upon how long it takes to sell your house and that spare motor for your pickup? If you have a house. And what is the wait time for the tens of millions of renters who have no savings to wipe out? Infinite. Or they can go bankrupt (5,700 per day) and after so delay, maybe find a provider who will EAT THE COST and pass it along to ME. Talk about socialism! You’re welcome.

BLK: “…do not want to have to travel to the US for good care.”>>

DAR
Let’s spank that one again. I did some more checking. They took a huge survey and found:

“Only 90 of 18,000 respondents to the 1996 Canadian National Population Health Survey indicated they had received health care in America in the past year, and only 20 of these had gone to the U.S. specifically for that purpose.”

I know you aren’t very good at math Blake but let me point out that when you only have 20 people out of 18,000 doing something (.11%), it’s not really an issue.

It’s worth pointing out that some of the small number of those who do receive care in the US fall into these categories:

a) care given to Canadians while traveling in the U.S.,

b) Canadians working in the U.S. on business travel,

c) Canadians who move to the U.S. during the winter to avoid the cold (“snowbirds”).

d) For some it is more convenient to go to the U.S. than to travel long distances to healthcare facilities due to simple proximity.

D.

DAR
No, I often cite university studies and peer reviewed science. Are you trying to pretend that Gallop is a “left wing source?”

The Heritage Society is a right-wing thinktank that puts out all rightwing, all the time. It’s as if I quoted something put out by moveon. It doesn’t mean it is false, it means there is reason to be very skeptical of their claims. I read your articles and gave specific reasons why they didn’t accomplish what you wish.

BIGD: “Of course all the Brits I know hate their system.”>>

DAR
Maybe you should get to know some who aren’t whiners. This scientific poll by Gallop (which carefully asked the same questions of each country) trumps you talking about “the Brits” you “know.”

BIGD: Does this poll from 2004 have anything worthy for you?>>

DAR
Not really. It’s put out by a Newfie medical association, with ill defined terms (“longer than you thought was reasonable”?) with the clear goal of pushing people to appeal for more doctors and more medical care. That’s reasonable. Of course people are going to yeah, give us more doctors! People always want more of those and Canada does have problems with a shortages of doctors (and probably nurses). SO DOES the US, especially in rural areas. Note: Canada has *a lot* of rural areas.

Theirs is more pronounced because of the obvious geographical and weather conditions. It’s hard to keep a doctor or nurse in a small remote area when he can make a hell of a lot more money sucking on the giant healthcare TEAT here in the US. If the US gets a sensible system and removes some of the massive waste and bloat, this will probably help Canada better hold on to it’s medical professionals.

It’s a geographical and sparse population problem then, and I see no reason to think the situation would be improved (but rather would be worse) if Canada had a US type system. But no politician would DARE mention such a thing in Canada. It would be the kiss of death. He would be laughed off the stage. Canadians are very aware of the US mess, so when they whine it is not in order to get anything like what the US has. They’re not saying: “Please give us a thousand for profit healthcare companies!”
As I mentioned, Canadians were “asked to name the Greatest Canadian in history; and in a broad national consensus, they gave the honor to Tommy Douglas, the Saskatchewan premier who is considered the father of the country’s health care system.”

So what is the cure? They can throw more money at it. Canada did underfund their medical system in the 90′s, now they are playing catch up in some areas.

But as the Gallop poll showed, when asked the very same questions, they are far most satisfied with their system and access, than Americans.

My sister is studying to be a nurse assistant in Vancouver BC. She is on some fast track and in a year she will be on the job and making $27 an hour. I’ll be staying with her some this summer and will see what I can learn.

D.

Got it.

Of course all the Brits I know hate their system.

Does this poll from 2004 have anything worthy for you?

The poll, with a margin of error of ± 2.8% 19 times out of 20, indicates:

* Barely one in 10 Canadians (14%) now believes that that the country has an adequate supply of physicians, a significant decline since 1999 (35%).
* That latter finding is reflected by data showing that 49% of Canadians, or a member of their household, had to wait “longer than you thought was reasonable” to see a specialist within the past year. That is up from 31% in 1999, the year the CMA began conducting polls on access-to-care issues.
* Similarly, 38% of respondents offered the same response when asked about access to family physicians, up from 21% in 1999.
* Concern about access to advanced diagnostic procedures has also risen significantly. When asked if they had to wait “longer than you thought was reasonable” for these procedures in the past year, 31% of respondents answered affirmatively this year, compared with only 14% in 1999.
Source

When Gallop asked the Canadian’s and the Brits and the Americans the same question about satisfaction with the health care system, the US gets creamed. You can’t just dismiss this with a hand wave and a claim that those people haven’t been sick. That’s ridiculous. Read the data, look at the charts. Get informed.

Bigd: The idea that people are satisfied deals with a number of things.>>

DAR
Yes, but it is the greatest indicator of the populaces satisfaction with their, healthcare, system. Obviously! And when you ask this question of the people who live in these respective countries “the US gets creamed.” Now you might ask yourself why that is. I happen to know.

I bet if you did a poll of satisfaction with the postal systems, the US would win and Canada (at least) would get creamed. This is because the Canadian postal system (as I remember) notoriously lousy, and the US postal system is very good.

But for some reason, the US just can’t get it’s health care act together and this is borne out when we ask the people living under the different systems. Again we see the US system spends for more, and gets worse results.

BIGD: The major innovations in medicine come from our country and the costs for the best care in the world are more.>>

DAR
Actually, that’s a little nationalistic rubbish. The US health care spending (much of it government/socialist) dwarfs other countries so we would expect it to produce a lot of innovation. But we find the US wastes even more money on advertising designer drugs than it spends on R & D. Tiny Canada, with the population of California, actually produces a disproportionately higher percentage of medical innovations. Maybe it’s all of those billions they save from not feeding 1,300 insurance companies and not wasting 100′s of billions on drug advertising.

Bigd: The report is quite easy, those in Britain and Canada who are satisfied have not suffered anything more than a minor illness or injury.>>

DAR
You pulled that one, directly from your bum. A scientific poll, as this was, of the three countries, should have the same ratio of sick people in the response pool. Your excuse makes *no* sense.

Bigd: Americans expect top notch and will not settle for the rationing that happens in Canada and Britain.>>

DAR
What a LOAD. Americans already experience and put up with rationing and perhaps even more of it. This is how insurance companies make and increase their profit, by denying care. That’s their job! This is why some hospitals have up to one billing clerk *per hospital bed* to try and negotiate with the insurance companies as they try to *ration care* and make more money. Oh, and those insurance companies all of people on the other end of line talking to those billing clerks. And we are all, collectively, paying their wages. This is a national farce.

You like to say the US has the “best care in the world.” I can bury you in scientific studies showing otherwise, in a range of categories.

Bigd: A 2004 study shows the myths of the Canadian system…>>

DAR
You tried this article before and I read it and responded to it. You apparently didn’t read it or understand it. It is specifically about Canadian medicare and the fellow, a rightwing hack on your rightwing Heritage site is still honest enough to finish with:

“Now, like most Canadians, I believe that our system is superior in many respects to the U.S. system…”

LOL.

Bigd: “[and] a 2002 Mises article…”

DAR
I already read and responded to this article. You ignored it.

Be wary of citing material from the Mises people. They aren’t taken seriously outside of anarcho-capitalist, extreme libertarian, Randian Objectivist circles. And with good reason. Nuttery gone to seed.

D.

Americans expect top notch and will not settle for the rationing that happens in Canada and Britain. Polls are nice and they can be extensive but they are not the be all end all. You last NYT poll was Obama voters 2:1 over McCain voters which certainly skewed results.

The studies show that Canadians come to America and Brits come to America for treatment because it is the best and you will get it immediately or as close to that as can be. I know those claims about Americans going to other countries but those seem to be for care or treatment that is not approved in the US like certain drugs or procedures. Only wealthy people can do this which once again shows the wealthy will get what they want and need but the less fortunate will be stuck with what they are told. Obama admitted as much in his infomercial.

A 2004 study shows the myths of the Canadian system.

From a 2002 Mises article

Take individuals in Canada who suffer from large kidney stones, for example. In the USA, a procedure called lithotripy is readily available. (This method uses sound waves to break up large stones so individuals can more easily pass them.) Canadian medical authorities, on the other hand, rarely make such treatment available and make those victims of kidney stones deal with them in the most painful way. (Not all U.S. kidney stone sufferers are given lithotripy, but they almost always receive more intensive care than do Canadians.)

Since all medical prices are controlled by the Canadian authorities, treatment of kidney stones is less expensive north of the border, at least on paper. However the real costs are borne by the consumers of such medical malpractice. It may be cheaper according to some accounting ledgers to make people stand in line and wait (and wait and wait) for basic health care, not to mention needed surgery, but when one factors in all the opportunity costs, suddenly Canadian medicine is no longer so cheap.

The best care in the world comes at a price.

About reporting health statistics. If people are denied or forced to wait for care for certain ailments and die waiting then how their death is reported makes a big deal for the statistics.

In Baltimore the crime stats are manipulated and police shoo criminals away instead of arresting them. Murders are reported as a single when a number of folks die if they are ever reported as a murder. The result is that the crime stats “seem” to be improving when it is not true. Even Baltimore cannot keep from being on the bad city list despite the numbers manipulating. That same manipulation can occur in reporting mortality rates.

The only people who are happy with the Canadian or British system are those who do not have to use it.

My friends in England can’t wait to come here because they hate what they have there. And my friends work in the health care system…