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	<title>Comments on: Obama To Abandon Cap And Trade?</title>
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	<description>"Let that be a lesson to you, boys and girls. Don't ever argue with the Big Dog because the Big Dog is always right"</description>
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		<title>By: Adam</title>
		<link>http://www.onebigdog.net/obama-to-abandon-cap-and-trade/comment-page-1/#comment-143723</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 20:44:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.onebigdog.net/?p=8336#comment-143723</guid>
		<description>Exactly.  If I thought I was changing minds here I&#039;d be even more naive than these conservatives on this site think I am.  It doesn&#039;t matter if Blake notices he gets crushed by facts time and again, it&#039;s all about gathering the information for future use against people who actually care about fact or logic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Exactly.  If I thought I was changing minds here I&#8217;d be even more naive than these conservatives on this site think I am.  It doesn&#8217;t matter if Blake notices he gets crushed by facts time and again, it&#8217;s all about gathering the information for future use against people who actually care about fact or logic.</p>
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		<title>By: Darrel</title>
		<link>http://www.onebigdog.net/obama-to-abandon-cap-and-trade/comment-page-1/#comment-143715</link>
		<dc:creator>Darrel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 15:29:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.onebigdog.net/?p=8336#comment-143715</guid>
		<description>BLK: &quot;OK, I will amend my statement-&quot;&gt;&gt;

DAR
Poor Blake thinks he changed his statement, but he doesn&#039;t understand English well enough to know that he didn&#039;t.
  Both statements contain the claim &quot;there HAS NEVER BEEN A GOVERNMENT PROGRAM THAT WAS COST EFFECTIVE,&quot; and thus are refuted by the examples I already gave.

But he&#039;s right about one thing. Giving him examples and refuting his errors is a waste of time. He doesn&#039;t learn from them. Perhaps others do. Sometimes I learn new things while teaching him these basic things.

D.
----------------
Fox News busted for lying again, this time for &lt;a href=&quot;http://fayfreethinkers.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=20187#p20187&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Palin&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BLK: &#8220;OK, I will amend my statement-&#8221;&gt;&gt;</p>
<p>DAR<br />
Poor Blake thinks he changed his statement, but he doesn&#8217;t understand English well enough to know that he didn&#8217;t.<br />
  Both statements contain the claim &#8220;there HAS NEVER BEEN A GOVERNMENT PROGRAM THAT WAS COST EFFECTIVE,&#8221; and thus are refuted by the examples I already gave.</p>
<p>But he&#8217;s right about one thing. Giving him examples and refuting his errors is a waste of time. He doesn&#8217;t learn from them. Perhaps others do. Sometimes I learn new things while teaching him these basic things.</p>
<p>D.<br />
&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;-<br />
Fox News busted for lying again, this time for <a href="http://fayfreethinkers.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=20187#p20187" rel="nofollow">Palin</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Blake</title>
		<link>http://www.onebigdog.net/obama-to-abandon-cap-and-trade/comment-page-1/#comment-143675</link>
		<dc:creator>Blake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 16:26:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.onebigdog.net/?p=8336#comment-143675</guid>
		<description>OK, I will amend my statement- THERE HAS NEVER BEEN A FEDERAL PROGRAM THAT HAS BEEN COST EFFECTIVE, OR WITHIN BUDGET.
And sure- keep those examples coming- I love to see you waste your time and energy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, I will amend my statement- THERE HAS NEVER BEEN A FEDERAL PROGRAM THAT HAS BEEN COST EFFECTIVE, OR WITHIN BUDGET.<br />
And sure- keep those examples coming- I love to see you waste your time and energy.</p>
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		<title>By: Blake</title>
		<link>http://www.onebigdog.net/obama-to-abandon-cap-and-trade/comment-page-1/#comment-143674</link>
		<dc:creator>Blake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 16:24:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.onebigdog.net/?p=8336#comment-143674</guid>
		<description>You are right, George- it is about power and control of a huge chunk of our freedoms- many of the goals of this &quot;Cap and Rob&quot; legislation could be accomplished without the taxes and caps in place. 
The good news is that it is looking like our bankers, (the Chinese) are trying to get us to abandon the healthcare issue as well as Cap &amp; Rob, so perhaps we can escape this for awhile, and sanity will make a comeback in our lives.
One may hope.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You are right, George- it is about power and control of a huge chunk of our freedoms- many of the goals of this &#8220;Cap and Rob&#8221; legislation could be accomplished without the taxes and caps in place.<br />
The good news is that it is looking like our bankers, (the Chinese) are trying to get us to abandon the healthcare issue as well as Cap &amp; Rob, so perhaps we can escape this for awhile, and sanity will make a comeback in our lives.<br />
One may hope.</p>
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		<title>By: George - Houston</title>
		<link>http://www.onebigdog.net/obama-to-abandon-cap-and-trade/comment-page-1/#comment-143604</link>
		<dc:creator>George - Houston</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Nov 2009 15:51:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.onebigdog.net/?p=8336#comment-143604</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t believe the administration will give up cap&amp;trade.  Whether its the public option, closing gitmo, pulling out of Iraq/Afganistan...they always return to their original course.  As soon as they get bogged down, they throw it in reverse for a second so they can get momentum when they put it back in drive...

And Adam, the reason that most people don&#039;t realize C&amp;T is about the environment is because it&#039;s not.  Money is the driving factor, not the spotted owl du&#039; jour.  If you want to help the environment and spend more on your energy then go ahead, just don&#039;t force me to pay for your beliefs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t believe the administration will give up cap&amp;trade.  Whether its the public option, closing gitmo, pulling out of Iraq/Afganistan&#8230;they always return to their original course.  As soon as they get bogged down, they throw it in reverse for a second so they can get momentum when they put it back in drive&#8230;</p>
<p>And Adam, the reason that most people don&#8217;t realize C&amp;T is about the environment is because it&#8217;s not.  Money is the driving factor, not the spotted owl du&#8217; jour.  If you want to help the environment and spend more on your energy then go ahead, just don&#8217;t force me to pay for your beliefs.</p>
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		<title>By: BA</title>
		<link>http://www.onebigdog.net/obama-to-abandon-cap-and-trade/comment-page-1/#comment-143599</link>
		<dc:creator>BA</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Nov 2009 14:12:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.onebigdog.net/?p=8336#comment-143599</guid>
		<description>Cap and trade won&#039;t be dropped.  They&#039;ll just change the language.  They&#039;re going to focus on job creation, huh?  Well, they&#039;ve already started trying to sell this bill as a job creation bill.  Don&#039;t be fooled.  Obama is intent on getting his &quot;climate change&quot; legislation through.  Write Congress and let them know why they shouldn&#039;t support this disastrous legislation at http://tiny.cc/wl9oU.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cap and trade won&#8217;t be dropped.  They&#8217;ll just change the language.  They&#8217;re going to focus on job creation, huh?  Well, they&#8217;ve already started trying to sell this bill as a job creation bill.  Don&#8217;t be fooled.  Obama is intent on getting his &#8220;climate change&#8221; legislation through.  Write Congress and let them know why they shouldn&#8217;t support this disastrous legislation at <a href="http://tiny.cc/wl9oU" rel="nofollow">http://tiny.cc/wl9oU</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Darrel</title>
		<link>http://www.onebigdog.net/obama-to-abandon-cap-and-trade/comment-page-1/#comment-143575</link>
		<dc:creator>Darrel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Nov 2009 22:23:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.onebigdog.net/?p=8336#comment-143575</guid>
		<description>BLK: &quot;there HAS NEVER BEEN A GOVERNMENT PROGRAM THAT WAS COST- EFFECTIVE. Ever.&quot;&gt;&gt;

DAR
   Of course there are no end of examples:

All of our peer countries have more government involvement in health care and reap the benefits of MUCH lower costs (and better results). Single payer is obviously more cost effective and for reasons a child can understand (one payer instead of a thousand, no ads etc.).

Many city governments, if not most of them, handle their sewage and sanitation in house (government) because they can better control costs (and thus be MORE cost effective).

How &quot;cost effective&quot; has it been for our government to have built our interstate highway system? Very.

As mentioned on &quot;This Week&quot; this morning, it is going to cost about $1,000,000 per soldier, per year, to station them in Afghanistan. This absurd amount is no doubt largely because so many military services have been out-sourced to expensive profit driven private contractors.

This is obviously stupid and Obama is already working to change this in order to be &quot;more cost effective,&quot; observe:

&quot;The White House Office of Management and Budget is directing federal agencies to take a series of actions designed to reduce the government&#039;s growing reliance on outside contractors.

In memoranda scheduled for release Wednesday and in September, the OMB will outline steps the Obama administration hopes will help save $40 billion annually through improved acquisition practices....

The employment of private tax collectors has been, for federal unions, a particularly egregious example of the misuse of contractors. In March, the Internal Revenue Service stopped using two private tax collection companies because, according to an agency statement, &quot;IRS collection is more cost-effective than the contractors.&quot; 

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/28/AR2009072802812.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;More at Wash. Post article&lt;/a&gt;

Also:

&quot;Frederick D. Barton, a senior adviser to the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington,...  also questioned whether using contractors was cost effective, saying that no one really knew whether having a force made up mainly of contractors whose salaries were often triple or quadruple those of a corresponding soldier or Marine was cheaper or more expensive for the American taxpayer.&quot;

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/02/world/asia/02contractors.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;LINK&lt;/a&gt;.

Hmmm... is it more cost effective to pay four times the price for something? Probably not.

The above examples show your claim is wrong, let me know if you would like more examples.

D.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BLK: &#8220;there HAS NEVER BEEN A GOVERNMENT PROGRAM THAT WAS COST- EFFECTIVE. Ever.&#8221;&gt;&gt;</p>
<p>DAR<br />
   Of course there are no end of examples:</p>
<p>All of our peer countries have more government involvement in health care and reap the benefits of MUCH lower costs (and better results). Single payer is obviously more cost effective and for reasons a child can understand (one payer instead of a thousand, no ads etc.).</p>
<p>Many city governments, if not most of them, handle their sewage and sanitation in house (government) because they can better control costs (and thus be MORE cost effective).</p>
<p>How &#8220;cost effective&#8221; has it been for our government to have built our interstate highway system? Very.</p>
<p>As mentioned on &#8220;This Week&#8221; this morning, it is going to cost about $1,000,000 per soldier, per year, to station them in Afghanistan. This absurd amount is no doubt largely because so many military services have been out-sourced to expensive profit driven private contractors.</p>
<p>This is obviously stupid and Obama is already working to change this in order to be &#8220;more cost effective,&#8221; observe:</p>
<p>&#8220;The White House Office of Management and Budget is directing federal agencies to take a series of actions designed to reduce the government&#8217;s growing reliance on outside contractors.</p>
<p>In memoranda scheduled for release Wednesday and in September, the OMB will outline steps the Obama administration hopes will help save $40 billion annually through improved acquisition practices&#8230;.</p>
<p>The employment of private tax collectors has been, for federal unions, a particularly egregious example of the misuse of contractors. In March, the Internal Revenue Service stopped using two private tax collection companies because, according to an agency statement, &#8220;IRS collection is more cost-effective than the contractors.&#8221; </p>
<p><a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/28/AR2009072802812.html" rel="nofollow">More at Wash. Post article</a></p>
<p>Also:</p>
<p>&#8220;Frederick D. Barton, a senior adviser to the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington,&#8230;  also questioned whether using contractors was cost effective, saying that no one really knew whether having a force made up mainly of contractors whose salaries were often triple or quadruple those of a corresponding soldier or Marine was cheaper or more expensive for the American taxpayer.&#8221;</p>
<p><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/02/world/asia/02contractors.html" rel="nofollow">LINK</a>.</p>
<p>Hmmm&#8230; is it more cost effective to pay four times the price for something? Probably not.</p>
<p>The above examples show your claim is wrong, let me know if you would like more examples.</p>
<p>D.</p>
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		<title>By: Adam</title>
		<link>http://www.onebigdog.net/obama-to-abandon-cap-and-trade/comment-page-1/#comment-143555</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Nov 2009 19:06:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.onebigdog.net/?p=8336#comment-143555</guid>
		<description>I guess it depends on how you define cost-effective.  We face a serious, serious problem with energy consumption and climate change that conservatives, backed by oil-industry misinformation, keep their heads in the sand over.

Nobody is saying Cap and Trade will be free but my point is simply that conservative estimates distort reality on the costs and polls based on the distortion are clearly affecting public opinion to the negative.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I guess it depends on how you define cost-effective.  We face a serious, serious problem with energy consumption and climate change that conservatives, backed by oil-industry misinformation, keep their heads in the sand over.</p>
<p>Nobody is saying Cap and Trade will be free but my point is simply that conservative estimates distort reality on the costs and polls based on the distortion are clearly affecting public opinion to the negative.</p>
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		<title>By: Blake</title>
		<link>http://www.onebigdog.net/obama-to-abandon-cap-and-trade/comment-page-1/#comment-143551</link>
		<dc:creator>Blake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Nov 2009 15:47:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.onebigdog.net/?p=8336#comment-143551</guid>
		<description>The CBO is wrong in their estimate, because they do not take many of the hidden costs into account.
Costs like having to hire (by law) an &quot;environmental&quot; geek who will tell you if you have to retrofit your house before you can sell it- or you cannot sell it- period.
There is also the costs that are attached to &quot;joining&quot; the &quot;smart grid&quot;, whether you want to or not- and if your power supply meets the criteria- if not, they will curtail your power until you get with the program, whether or not you can pay for whatever power you use.
In addition, this is, once again, a government program, and there HAS NEVER BEEN A GOVERNMENT PROGRAM THAT WAS COST- EFFECTIVE. Ever.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The CBO is wrong in their estimate, because they do not take many of the hidden costs into account.<br />
Costs like having to hire (by law) an &#8220;environmental&#8221; geek who will tell you if you have to retrofit your house before you can sell it- or you cannot sell it- period.<br />
There is also the costs that are attached to &#8220;joining&#8221; the &#8220;smart grid&#8221;, whether you want to or not- and if your power supply meets the criteria- if not, they will curtail your power until you get with the program, whether or not you can pay for whatever power you use.<br />
In addition, this is, once again, a government program, and there HAS NEVER BEEN A GOVERNMENT PROGRAM THAT WAS COST- EFFECTIVE. Ever.</p>
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		<title>By: UNRR</title>
		<link>http://www.onebigdog.net/obama-to-abandon-cap-and-trade/comment-page-1/#comment-143546</link>
		<dc:creator>UNRR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Nov 2009 14:16:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.onebigdog.net/?p=8336#comment-143546</guid>
		<description>This post has been linked for the HOT5 Daily 11/14/2009, at &lt;a href=&quot;http://unreligiousright.blogspot.com/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;The Unreligious Right&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This post has been linked for the HOT5 Daily 11/14/2009, at <a href="http://unreligiousright.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">The Unreligious Right</a></p>
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