DAR
Oh I am arrogant, no doubt about it. But is it with any basis? I think one of you conservatives should really set me straight.

Factually, you know.

You might encourage your these off line people to join in and teach me a thing or two. That would be great. Maybe they have a friend who knows something about these things. I am always open to learning new things and would never say I am right and not open to changing my belief about any topic (as you and Blake have said).

That’s what cult members say.

I change beliefs when I am given good reasons. That’s what impresses me. Good arguments. Not the name calling and tantrums.

D.

DAR
You are quoting junk from 1935? Seriously? As I have already shown, the ACLU *banned* communists in 1940. So if this was 1935, you would have something to talk about.

BIGD: It is clear that it was founded by communists>>

DAR
That’s nice. Those folks are dead. Why should anyone care today? You guys are still fighting communists? Oh how you miss the old days!

BIGD: Jefferson would not address a state issue but addressed it on the federal level.>>

DAR
Good point. The US constitution is after all, “on the federal level.” And it trumps the states. If you don’t like that, secede.

BIGD: Legal scholars have stated that the phrase does not exist in the Constitution>>

DAR
You don’t have to be a legal scholar to know that! It’s quite short. You should read it carefully. Better, read the case law on these issues, because private interpretation doesn’t matter. You really do not have a basic understanding of the precedent regarding the establishment clause.

BIDG: “…the doc**ent states Congress shall make no law establishing religion.”>>

DAR
No it doesn’t. You can’t even get a few words right. The document states:

“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,…”

Each word is VERY important. Many books have been written about that sentence.

Maybe start with something simple:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Establishment_Clause_of_the_First_Amendment

BIGD: Obama made us all Muslims with his recognition of Islam and his ridiculous assertion that America was a Muslim nation.>>

DAR
When did he say that? Why do you say things you know are false?

BIGD: “Having a Cross at a cemetery does not establish a religion.>>

DAR
I am sorry you have a grade school understanding of the establishment clause.

BIGD: if children want to pray at school they may.>>

DAR
Of course they can, and do. And the ACLU defends their right to do this. But what they cannot do is have a state employee, while on the job and representing the state, lead them in prayer. That violates the establishment clause as determined by the SCOTUS.

BIGD: If a graduating class decides it wants a prayer it may have one.>>

DAR
Wrong. Note:

***
“The principle that government may accommodate the free exercise of religion does not supersede the fundamental limitations imposed by the Establishment Clause. It is beyond dispute that, at a minimum, the Constitution guarantees that government may not coerce anyone to support or participate in religion or its exercise, or otherwise act in a way which ‘establishes a [state] religion or religious faith, or tends to do so.’ ” Id., at 587 (citations omitted) (quoting Lynch v. Donnelly, 465 U.S. 668, 678 (1984)).
***

Also, from the 2000 Supreme court decision on prayer a football games:

“The delivery of a message such as the invocation here — on school property,
at school-sponsored events, over the school’s public address system, by a
speaker representing the student body, under the supervision of the school
faculty, and pursuant to a school policy that explicitly and implicitly encourages
school prayer — is not properly characterized as ‘private’ speech.”

In response to the proposition that students had voted for the “invocation”:

“Through its election scheme, the District has established a governmental mechanism that turns the school into a forum for religious debate and empowers the student body majority to subject students of minority views to constitutionally improper messages. The award of that power alone is not acceptable.”

Making the central case:

“Nothing in the Constitution as interpreted by the Court prohibits any public
school student from voluntarily praying at any time before, during or after the
school day. But the religious liberty protected by the Constitution is abridged
when the State affirmatively sponsors the particular religious practice of prayer.”

D.

“ACLU gets big bucks from government”

DAR
How unfortunate that you are not interested in being taken seriously.

Someday I would like to find an honest, intelligent conservative who will stand up and defend their beliefs politely and with intellectual honesty.

If you know of such a place, perhaps point me in that direction. All you seem to have here is invective, spleen, constant dishonesty, vile smears and tantrums.

Is this the best conservatives have to offer?

I don’t think so.

But if I were a conservative, and I am on several issues, I would be, and am sorely embarrassed by this kind of behavior. It’s disgusting.

D.

I don’t know what you think you are accomplishing but rarely do you roast anyone or show them wrong. You cut and paste info from left wing sites or those who agree with your position and you present things that are either wrong or someone else’s opinion.

If you feel it is your duty to change people then go into psychiatry. However, I will not allow this kind of stupidity here. Your MISSION. Take it someplace else.

I see the world infested with liberal jackasses like you but don’t see it as my mission to change them. I just want them to leave me alone and pay their own way.

I am tired of paying for liberal mental cases.

Why don’t you go back to the circle jerk site of yours and play with your like minded friends and stay away from here. If you truly believe you have a mission then you have failed because you are not changing minds here. Most people who read my site comment off line about what an arrogant moron you are. So you failed.

I am informed. ACLU is interested in making us Communists and wants to remove mush of religion. They jump in in some cases but those are for their benefit and not the benefit of the complaintant. ACLU gets big bucks from government for these kinds of suits. Take that away and they would stop.

The ACLU is anti American. If the next terrorist attack is on their HQ I would not cry for them.

“I joined. I don’t regret being a part of the Communist tactic, which increased the effectiveness of a good cause. I knew what I was doing. I was not an innocent liberal. I wanted what the Communists wanted…”

He was also quoted as saying:

I have continued directing the unpopular fight for the rights of agitation, as Director of the American Civil Liberties Union … I have been to Europe several times, mostly in connection with international radical activities, chiefly against war, fascism and imperialism; and have traveled constantly in the United States to areas of conflict over workers’ rights to strike and organize.

My chief aversion is the system of greed, private greed, private profit, privilege and violence which makes up the control of the world today, and which has brought it to the tragic crisis of unprecedented hunger and unemployment …

Therefore, I am for socialism, disarmament and, ultimately, for abolishing the state itself as an instrument of violence and compulsion.
I seek the social ownership of property, the abolition of the propertied class and sole control of those who produce wealth.

Communism is the goal.

From an excerpt appearing in an editorial (“Unmasked”) published in the The San Antonio [Texas] Light (18 October 1935; Pg. 20) is fairly true to and nearly contemporaneous with the above version, though it presumably includes more of what Baldwin is said to have reported of his activities since graduating in 1905,

It is clear that it was founded by communists and that communism was the goal. It might be a right wing myth to you but Baldwin was clear about it.

Jefferson was not answering a question about the meaning of the First Amendment. He was answering a letter from the Baptists who complained that they felt the state was granting them rights to religion rather than them having it. Jefferson would not address a state issue but addressed it on the federal level.

He wrote the letter for political purposes and his intent was to show that he did not agree with having certain observations that were undertaken in Britain.

His letter indicates that there should be a wall of separation so that government may not dictate religion.

Legal scholars have stated that the phrase does not exist in the Constitution and that the document states Congress shall make no law establishing religion. Recognizing any religion does not establish it. If it did then Obama made us all Muslims with his recognition of Islam and his ridiculous assertion that America was a Muslim nation.

Having a Cross at a cemetery does not establish a religion. Having any religious symbol in a government building does not establish a religion. These ony recognize the religions, something the Constitution does not forbid. It forbids Congress from establishing religion and it prohibits government from prohibiting free exercise. Therefore, if children want to pray at school they may. If a graduating class decides it wants a prayer it may have one. If the government does not allow it then it is prohibiting the free exercise of religion.

Allowing it does not establish an official religion because only Congress could do that (but is prohibited from doing so by the Constitution). The above examples are where religion is recognized, not established.

Very good piece about Jefferson Letter

When they say what the constitution means, it has weight. When you say what the constitution means, it has no weight. Them are the rules, see the constitution.

BIGD: The ACLU is full of communists>>

DAR
I know lots of people in the ACLU. I don’t know any communists. So you’re lying again. Best to avoid that.

The ACLU used to defend communists of course, since in America, you are allowed to be one if you like. It’s a civil liberty. Note:

***
“In 1940, the ACLU formally barred communists from leadership or staff positions, and would take the position that it did not want communists as members either. The board declared that it was “inappropriate for any person to serve on the governing committees of the Union or its staff, who is a member of any political organization which supports totalitarianism in any country, or who by his public declarations indicates his support of such a principle.” –wiki blurb
***

Right wingers love to tell lies about the ACLU. I wish they wouldn’t.

BIGD: They demand crosses come off government owned cemeteries,>>

DAR
Right, the government has no business endorsing/establishing religion by using their power to display crosses. We have churches for that. People can of course put all sorts of things on their own graves.

BIGD: religious pictures come off walls of government buildings>>

DAR
But of course. Why should our secular government be endorsing a religion (which is always divisive) with such artwork? Best to stay neutral. And this is *not* in violation of the constitution, but perfectly in line with it according to SCOTUS, with considerable precedent.

BIGD: You use the word separation. It is NOT in the Constitution.>>

DAR
A common complaint but one that fails. As I’ve cited several times:

***
The phrase, “a wall of separation between church and state,” was coined by President Thomas Jefferson in a carefully crafted letter to the Danbury Baptists in 1802, when they had asked him to explain the First Amendment. The Supreme Court, and lower courts, have used Jefferson’s phrase repeatedly in major decisions upholding neutrality in matters of religion. The exact words “separation of church and state” do not appear in the Constitution; neither do “separation of powers,” “interstate commerce,” “right to privacy,” and other phrases describing well-established constitutional principles.”

http://www.ffrf.org/nontracts/xian.php

BIGD: You confuse people freely exercising a right with state run religion.>>

DAR
Actually, I don’t. Your understanding of the First Amendment and the established precedent is apparently very rudimentary.

BIGD: The problem is the ACLU wants to remove religion from society…>>

DAR
This is an absurd caricature, flatly false and reveals a profound ignorance. The ACLU has on hundreds if not thousands of cases intervened to protect the civil liberties of those whose civil right to freely practice their religion has been infringed.

I can bury you in examples.

Get informed. The link below would be a good place to start.

D.
—————-
“The Constitution does not endorse any religious creed, and it does not recognize any power of government to decide theological questions. Beliefs about the nature of God is a proper subject for individuals, families, religious communities, and theologians, but not for government bodies such as the U.S. Congress or a local school board.”

Link to ACLU removed by owner