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on Sunday, April 24th, 2011 at 13:02 and is filed under Political.
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Yeah, that brutal death part is weird. Why would a merciful God want to do that to his son? It seems Christians and the Bible have to go into major contortions to justify such a cruel thing. Even in those days, it was considered cruel.
I mean…he is God! He could have said, “For I so love the world that I will make my only begotten Son…eat his Broccoli!”
Except I don’t think there was Broccoli back then. People hadn’t invented it yet. But they sure had that torture stuff down pat. Why did God see fit to use that inhuman human invention on his son?
I don’t know. I would guess that because Jesus was suffering under the weight of all the sins of all people, everywhere. He was brutally punished and died so that the rest of us would not have to face that.
That is what we know. But the thing I can’t understand is why God demanded that?
The next posted entry, by yourself, talks of police brutality.
And I see a parallel there, too many similarities to find comfort in.
But it doesn’t make me “doubt God. No, it makes me question the words of men, who tried to make a story about God.
To (some) men, the story eloquently shows the power and mercy of God.
To me it shows illogical, irrational cruelty and a basic disrespect of common sense.
Which happen to be hallmarks of, like the police beatings, the human, not the Godly.
I don’t see a parallel at all in this case — because God allowed it to be done. In the police cases, it is police attacking people who do not want to be harmed. God wanted to take the punishment for everyone’s sins. I’m not sure they could have been forgiven with anything less. If He just said, “Oh, okay, you’re all forgiven,” I don’t think many people would have followed Him.
He is God; he could do what ever he wanted. Obviously he wanted to punish his son. Obviously a sick puppy, if you take the Bible at face value. But how about I offer another opinion? That humans made that story up?
Back in the Day, Christians were not conservatives; they were the liberals. And that aspect of human nature has not changed. Liberals were liars then, and liars now. They are obsessed with conspiracy theory. the have a penchant for long tales that are totally illogical, but “pull the heart-strings.”
I have a personal relation with God. And he says, “Don’t believe everything you read and hear.”
So Ogre, I love you, but you better start making sense.
Well, you can claim it’s all made up — and you’re free to make that decision. I’d never dream of using force to make you change your mind.
But I do know that if that’s what you choose, then you will spend eternity in hell, separated from God and eternally alone.
If you read and study the situation surrounding Jesus’ death, you will see it was not about God wanting to punish. Instead, it was God showing that he loved all people so much that he was willing to give up his only Son. He didn’t want to punish his Son, people wanted to punish Him. People abandoned Him — and He just wanted us back. So he offered His Son as a gift for our salvation. We only need to accept it to have eternal life with God.
“But I do know that if that’s what you choose, then you will spend eternity in hell, separated from God and eternally alone.”
Do you know that? Or do you have FAITH in that?
Because words have meanings, and if we are to be true to words, then I have to point out…you don’t know that. You have a ton of faith but then, there was a time when everyone with faith also believed the Sun traveled around the earth. So I need you to question this; thy to come up with a creative answer, because it is a question that plagues me, as well as other Saints.
“Why is it that faith in God is a characteristic of Human Nature, in that all people have it?”
Even godless liberals have a faith in a god, with a small “g” as in al gore, etc.
And second, why do all Gods have to be different? You sit two men of the same religion, from the same church, and ask them to tell you about God it will sound as though they are talking about two different entities.
And third, why are humans so intolerant when it comes to faith? Just look what you did to me! “Oh! You have questing mind! You go to HELL!”
You ass. When you have to power to make me go to hell, I am sure we will all get a signed bible to inform us.
You say God didn’t want to punish his son, and also believe that. What lunatic would want to do that? Not MY GOD!
Yours maybe, but not mine.
Frankly I think it was expedient that there comes a story like that, in human eyes, so humans made it up.
Logic demands that the facts fit the situation and explain the events.
Also, logic says that the simple answer is usually the right one, especially if the contortionist’s answer only raises more questions than it answers! And hoisting Jesus on the petard of theology certainly complicates things, doesn’t it.
I was hoping for answers but so far you have served me dogma. And I am not a dog lover.
I do know that those who reject God will spend eternity in hell, just as I know that the sun will rise in the east tomorrow, but I cannot prove it until it happens. I am just as sure that I do not have the power to send you anywhere, nor would I try. To say that I’m intolerant in this is to say that I’m intolerant when I insist that 2 + 2 = 4. It doesn’t really matter whether you believe that 2+2=4, and it doesn’t matter if you don’t believe it. Either way, 2+2=4. If I’m intolerant for not accepting that 2+2=5, then I’m intolerant.
I’m a big fan of logic, and I’ve not found anything about God to be illogical.
It really is not for us to question God as to his motives- some things you have to take on faith- that is why it is called “Faith”.
On a side note, I watched “Jesus Christ Superstar” last night, and if you watch this film, you will see the beginnings of the antipathy to Israel in 1976- and the truly insane mind of a progressive leftie director- he had the Jews deaked out in modern helmets and web belts, complete with Uzis, and the Romans were similarly decked out, with camo pants and combat boots.
I think you were supposed to take some drugs before viewing, the better to “understand” how much of an “Oppresor” Jesus must have been, nailed to the cross-
What a pity, and the music was so nice.
That show is… well, interesting. Yes, the version that was made for TV is waaaaaay out there. But the way the play was written gives each director VERY wide latitude to do different things without losing the main message of Christ. So yeah, I’ve always thought that version was wacko. The broadway show is great, though!
EOJ–God is a holy and just God and no human being could ever be in God’s presence in man’s sinful condition therefore (Jesus) His son came to earth and took on human form and died in our place and paid our price because God loves us and Jesus loves us enough to want us in heaven with Him for all eternity. Your job is to believe on Jesus and what he did. All other religions are based on good works and trying to get yourself into heaven based on what you do and it is a lie. You cannot get yourself there. “There is only one name given under heaven whereby you can be saved.” That is the name of Jesus Christ.
Victoria, you don’t have to go into the story for me; I know it. I have absolute faith that I know it better than you.
I also know what my “job” is, if I am to be true to God’s wish.
The question I try to answer is “where do God”s words stop and human words begin.”
There is only one answer why God would have created this flawed and imperfect being, myself, instead of a perfect image, a carbon copy of Himself; my job is to question, to remember, and to learn.
We all have that duty.
And one of the root elements of knowledge is “It is only knowledge if it can be questioned in the light of new knowledge and still be found rational.”
And making your son die when you could have done something else, in the light of what we find rational today, fails this test.
So, Theological, I can agree with all of you, about the need for the philosophy when the “event” happened 2000 years ago. The way it may trigger deeper feelings. And that “Jesus Christ Superstar” is about as stupid as it gets.
But if God doesn’t want me to question, why did he create me, any of us, as questioning men?
God could have done it many ways but he did it in a fashion that people would understand and would have an impact. Eat your broccoli is not as dramatic and does not have as lasting an impression. He gave us a son who was born in poverty and gave of his life for others. A lesson for us all. The image of Jesus as a community organizer is a false one and the idea that he would give other people’s money pr possessions away is another myth. He set an example for all of us, give of yourself, render to government what is theirs but render to God what is His. None of the teachings would have had as much an impact without the pain and suffering that led to salvation, a lesson of compassion that took the pain and suffering from us.
He gave us all a brain and free choice because He doeesn’t want robots with no thought or choice that wouldn’t be real love on our part. So you are completely free to choose God or not. You are completely free to decide to believe in Him or not. He did what He did and now the ball is in your court so to speak. He never said no one could question. In fact if you keep on questioning and seeking–He says you will find Him.
It is me being nasty, Victoria; what if I see God differently than others? Is that not possible? Is God not able to make himself known as he wants us to see him?
You implication was clear, “So you are completely free to choose God or not.” In other words, unless I see him as you do and use the same verbology as you in describing it, I am off on a one-way trip to hell.
You also imply that I am the one who doesn’t have a relation with God, “…if you keep on questioning… you will find Him” but I hold the concept that I will not get close to got if I swallow, unquestioned, the obviously human-originated stories made up about Him.
And in none of my talk, have I condemned any of you to hell, but several of you are more than happy to see me burn! And you wonder why I question you as authority on a merciful God???
Now you’re just way out of line, Eoj. No one here said they wanted you to burn in hell. Worse, no one here even implied they would be happy to “see you burn,” instead, the exact opposite!
You say you’re a fan of logic — please read what people write and not what you want to read.
I tend to agree with those who have studied both Christ and the universe who point to an evolutionary empathic response created inside people in relation to extreme suffering in nature. The death of Jesus triggers a deep empathic response in humans which in turn triggers a deeper level of compassion. Compassion is a component of love and love is at the core of the gospel.
The nearly 15 billion years of creation is a reflection God’s depth and glory. God could have accomplished what he accomplished any number of different ways or even not at all. But God used his same processes that created everything we know and understand from mere atoms to also in turn set off a chain of events. The birth, death and resurrection of Jesus embeds God’s message of salvation deeply in our consciousness that resonates in the form of compassion and love.
As an aside, this is why there is compassion in the world even from those who do not believe.
Yeah, that brutal death part is weird. Why would a merciful God want to do that to his son? It seems Christians and the Bible have to go into major contortions to justify such a cruel thing. Even in those days, it was considered cruel.
I mean…he is God! He could have said, “For I so love the world that I will make my only begotten Son…eat his Broccoli!”
Except I don’t think there was Broccoli back then. People hadn’t invented it yet. But they sure had that torture stuff down pat. Why did God see fit to use that inhuman human invention on his son?
I don’t know. I would guess that because Jesus was suffering under the weight of all the sins of all people, everywhere. He was brutally punished and died so that the rest of us would not have to face that.
That is what we know. But the thing I can’t understand is why God demanded that?
The next posted entry, by yourself, talks of police brutality.
And I see a parallel there, too many similarities to find comfort in.
But it doesn’t make me “doubt God. No, it makes me question the words of men, who tried to make a story about God.
To (some) men, the story eloquently shows the power and mercy of God.
To me it shows illogical, irrational cruelty and a basic disrespect of common sense.
Which happen to be hallmarks of, like the police beatings, the human, not the Godly.
I don’t see a parallel at all in this case — because God allowed it to be done. In the police cases, it is police attacking people who do not want to be harmed. God wanted to take the punishment for everyone’s sins. I’m not sure they could have been forgiven with anything less. If He just said, “Oh, okay, you’re all forgiven,” I don’t think many people would have followed Him.
He is God; he could do what ever he wanted. Obviously he wanted to punish his son. Obviously a sick puppy, if you take the Bible at face value. But how about I offer another opinion? That humans made that story up?
Back in the Day, Christians were not conservatives; they were the liberals. And that aspect of human nature has not changed. Liberals were liars then, and liars now. They are obsessed with conspiracy theory. the have a penchant for long tales that are totally illogical, but “pull the heart-strings.”
I have a personal relation with God. And he says, “Don’t believe everything you read and hear.”
So Ogre, I love you, but you better start making sense.
Well, you can claim it’s all made up — and you’re free to make that decision. I’d never dream of using force to make you change your mind.
But I do know that if that’s what you choose, then you will spend eternity in hell, separated from God and eternally alone.
If you read and study the situation surrounding Jesus’ death, you will see it was not about God wanting to punish. Instead, it was God showing that he loved all people so much that he was willing to give up his only Son. He didn’t want to punish his Son, people wanted to punish Him. People abandoned Him — and He just wanted us back. So he offered His Son as a gift for our salvation. We only need to accept it to have eternal life with God.
“But I do know that if that’s what you choose, then you will spend eternity in hell, separated from God and eternally alone.”
Do you know that? Or do you have FAITH in that?
Because words have meanings, and if we are to be true to words, then I have to point out…you don’t know that. You have a ton of faith but then, there was a time when everyone with faith also believed the Sun traveled around the earth. So I need you to question this; thy to come up with a creative answer, because it is a question that plagues me, as well as other Saints.
“Why is it that faith in God is a characteristic of Human Nature, in that all people have it?”
Even godless liberals have a faith in a god, with a small “g” as in al gore, etc.
And second, why do all Gods have to be different? You sit two men of the same religion, from the same church, and ask them to tell you about God it will sound as though they are talking about two different entities.
And third, why are humans so intolerant when it comes to faith? Just look what you did to me! “Oh! You have questing mind! You go to HELL!”
You ass. When you have to power to make me go to hell, I am sure we will all get a signed bible to inform us.
You say God didn’t want to punish his son, and also believe that. What lunatic would want to do that? Not MY GOD!
Yours maybe, but not mine.
Frankly I think it was expedient that there comes a story like that, in human eyes, so humans made it up.
Logic demands that the facts fit the situation and explain the events.
Also, logic says that the simple answer is usually the right one, especially if the contortionist’s answer only raises more questions than it answers! And hoisting Jesus on the petard of theology certainly complicates things, doesn’t it.
I was hoping for answers but so far you have served me dogma. And I am not a dog lover.
Sorry, you completely lost me.
I do know that those who reject God will spend eternity in hell, just as I know that the sun will rise in the east tomorrow, but I cannot prove it until it happens. I am just as sure that I do not have the power to send you anywhere, nor would I try. To say that I’m intolerant in this is to say that I’m intolerant when I insist that 2 + 2 = 4. It doesn’t really matter whether you believe that 2+2=4, and it doesn’t matter if you don’t believe it. Either way, 2+2=4. If I’m intolerant for not accepting that 2+2=5, then I’m intolerant.
I’m a big fan of logic, and I’ve not found anything about God to be illogical.
It really is not for us to question God as to his motives- some things you have to take on faith- that is why it is called “Faith”.
On a side note, I watched “Jesus Christ Superstar” last night, and if you watch this film, you will see the beginnings of the antipathy to Israel in 1976- and the truly insane mind of a progressive leftie director- he had the Jews deaked out in modern helmets and web belts, complete with Uzis, and the Romans were similarly decked out, with camo pants and combat boots.
I think you were supposed to take some drugs before viewing, the better to “understand” how much of an “Oppresor” Jesus must have been, nailed to the cross-
What a pity, and the music was so nice.
And why did everyone take the “Magic Bus”, after the crucifixion? More drugs needed-
That show is… well, interesting. Yes, the version that was made for TV is waaaaaay out there. But the way the play was written gives each director VERY wide latitude to do different things without losing the main message of Christ. So yeah, I’ve always thought that version was wacko. The broadway show is great, though!
EOJ–God is a holy and just God and no human being could ever be in God’s presence in man’s sinful condition therefore (Jesus) His son came to earth and took on human form and died in our place and paid our price because God loves us and Jesus loves us enough to want us in heaven with Him for all eternity. Your job is to believe on Jesus and what he did. All other religions are based on good works and trying to get yourself into heaven based on what you do and it is a lie. You cannot get yourself there. “There is only one name given under heaven whereby you can be saved.” That is the name of Jesus Christ.
Victoria, you don’t have to go into the story for me; I know it. I have absolute faith that I know it better than you.
I also know what my “job” is, if I am to be true to God’s wish.
The question I try to answer is “where do God”s words stop and human words begin.”
There is only one answer why God would have created this flawed and imperfect being, myself, instead of a perfect image, a carbon copy of Himself; my job is to question, to remember, and to learn.
We all have that duty.
And one of the root elements of knowledge is “It is only knowledge if it can be questioned in the light of new knowledge and still be found rational.”
And making your son die when you could have done something else, in the light of what we find rational today, fails this test.
So, Theological, I can agree with all of you, about the need for the philosophy when the “event” happened 2000 years ago. The way it may trigger deeper feelings. And that “Jesus Christ Superstar” is about as stupid as it gets.
But if God doesn’t want me to question, why did he create me, any of us, as questioning men?
God could have done it many ways but he did it in a fashion that people would understand and would have an impact. Eat your broccoli is not as dramatic and does not have as lasting an impression. He gave us a son who was born in poverty and gave of his life for others. A lesson for us all. The image of Jesus as a community organizer is a false one and the idea that he would give other people’s money pr possessions away is another myth. He set an example for all of us, give of yourself, render to government what is theirs but render to God what is His. None of the teachings would have had as much an impact without the pain and suffering that led to salvation, a lesson of compassion that took the pain and suffering from us.
He gave us all a brain and free choice because He doeesn’t want robots with no thought or choice that wouldn’t be real love on our part. So you are completely free to choose God or not. You are completely free to decide to believe in Him or not. He did what He did and now the ball is in your court so to speak. He never said no one could question. In fact if you keep on questioning and seeking–He says you will find Him.
Gee thanks Victoria, you keep looking and you will find him, as well.
I was just trying to be helpful. But since you want to get nasty and sarcastic…no more.
It is me being nasty, Victoria; what if I see God differently than others? Is that not possible? Is God not able to make himself known as he wants us to see him?
You implication was clear, “So you are completely free to choose God or not.” In other words, unless I see him as you do and use the same verbology as you in describing it, I am off on a one-way trip to hell.
You also imply that I am the one who doesn’t have a relation with God, “…if you keep on questioning… you will find Him” but I hold the concept that I will not get close to got if I swallow, unquestioned, the obviously human-originated stories made up about Him.
And in none of my talk, have I condemned any of you to hell, but several of you are more than happy to see me burn! And you wonder why I question you as authority on a merciful God???
Now you’re just way out of line, Eoj. No one here said they wanted you to burn in hell. Worse, no one here even implied they would be happy to “see you burn,” instead, the exact opposite!
You say you’re a fan of logic — please read what people write and not what you want to read.
I tend to agree with those who have studied both Christ and the universe who point to an evolutionary empathic response created inside people in relation to extreme suffering in nature. The death of Jesus triggers a deep empathic response in humans which in turn triggers a deeper level of compassion. Compassion is a component of love and love is at the core of the gospel.
The nearly 15 billion years of creation is a reflection God’s depth and glory. God could have accomplished what he accomplished any number of different ways or even not at all. But God used his same processes that created everything we know and understand from mere atoms to also in turn set off a chain of events. The birth, death and resurrection of Jesus embeds God’s message of salvation deeply in our consciousness that resonates in the form of compassion and love.
As an aside, this is why there is compassion in the world even from those who do not believe.
He is God; he could have created us with compassion.