Fraud or no Fraud?

Both political parties are quite fickle when it comes to the voters and whether or not fraud exists during elections. In 2000 the Democrats swore there were many problems with voting, especially in Florida where a lot of people learned a new word; disenfranchised. Many Democrats still view George Bush as an illegitimate president because, according to them, many blacks and other minorities were not allowed to vote due t Republican dirty tricks. Republicans played this down and said there were no problems but Democrats pushed for voter reform. Despite research that showed Democrats engaged in more dirty tricks than Republicans, the Dems nonetheless pushed for reform.

This prattle continued in 2004. During that election cycle people like Michael Moore had folks with video cameras recording voter fraud. Armies of lawyers were on stand by and a hot line was established so people could report how terribly they were being treated by Republicans. Ohio was the hot spot and Democrats alleged fraud again. They claimed that blacks were disenfranchised despite the fact that millions more blacks voted than did in prior elections. Republicans said it was on the up and up.

In 2006 the Democrats won and all of the sudden there were no allegations of fraud. The Dems were happy with the results and since they won everything must have been done correctly. Now we have Democrats saying that allegations of fraud are overblown and the Republicans pushing for voter reform. Democrats say that reform will disenfranchise minorities but don’t indicate how that squares with their allegations of disenfranchisement in 2000 when there were no tough voter rules.

Both parties are fickle and believe that there is no fraud when they win and lots of fraud when they lose. Sure, fraud exists but it is not as terrible as either party makes it out to be. Any fraud is wrong and if we would actually put people in jail it might stop. Regardless, there needs to be some voter reform. It is not too much to ask for a photo ID in order to vote. We require ID to buy alcohol, tobacco, and to board an airplane but we will not require it in order to protect one of the fundamental freedoms we enjoy and a process that selects who will lead us.

It does not make sense to leave this process open to fraud. People vote more than once, they vote under different names and they vote absentee and then show up on election day. This needs to stop because it hurts everyone, regardless of party. I am not happy with the results of the last election but I accept that as what the majority of those who voted wanted and I move on. I believe in the process when it runs right and as long as it is done fairly we can accept what happens and live with it. The appearance of impropriety leaves a bitter taste in people’s mouths and gives them reason to question the results of an election.

Let’s demand that voter reform include a requirement for each voter to show an ID and stiff penalties for those caught cheating. Our fundamental freedoms only have value if we protect them.

Related item:
NYT



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13 Responses to “Fraud or no Fraud?”

  1. Billy Joe says:

    Do you have any research to back up this assertion:

    research that showed Democrats engaged in more dirty tricks than Republicans, the Dems nonetheless pushed for reform.

    A link to a report from a legitimate source, for example?

  2. Billy Joe says:

    Gee, Big Dog. Does the “American Center for Voting Rights” have a website? The solitary link at the URL you link to above takes me a domain registration company. It appears the organization no longer exists, less the 2 years after it was founded. Have a look for yourself:

    http://www.americancenterforvotingrights.com/

    Someone even tried contacting them recently:

    http://electionlawblog.org/archives/008186.html

    This took me less than 5 minutes to research. It looks to me like you were duped, but I could be wrong. Feel free to dispute my conclusion.

    Any other “research” that Democrats engage in more voter fraud than Republicans? Please refer me to evidence more recent than the Kennedy-Nixon election.

  3. Big Dog says:

    They had a website and I got the original from that website. They no longer have one at that domain. The research came out several years ago and if you read it you will see the instances sited. Try researching them and see if they are real.

    Make no mistake, both sides are dirty but this research demonstrates the Dems are not so squeaky clean as they like you to believe.

  4. Billy Joe says:

    Big Dog, that’s a pretty big statement considering that you have no evidence whatsoever.

    I assume/hope you weren’t in military intelligence.

    Does it not bother you that someone attempted to sucker you with a bogus front organization or are you happy being a patsy?

    IF you’ve been paying any attention to the US Attorney scandal, you’ll know that several of them were fired for not trying to root out voter fraud and the reason they couldn’t root it out was because there wasn’t enough *evidence* to convict people. Lacking enough evidence to prosecute voter fraud (including in Wisconsin) the USAs probably should have been going after killers and terrorists and money launderers. Instead, several were fired.

    You don’t seem to have noticed yet, politics trumps everything with the Bush White House.

    Keep your eyes open for bogus front groups like the “American Center for Voting Rights”. Otherwise, you might consider renaming your blog “Big Patsy”.

  5. Big Dog says:

    Perhaps you could find a link demonstrating that this was a front group? They were a real organization and if they duped me they certainly duped the major media that published the study.

    In case you have a hard time understanding this, I have said and continue to say, that voter fraud occurs in both parties. If you read the piece you will see that it calls them both hypocrites.

    As for intelligence, don’t go there, you could not hold a candle. However, if you ever get here from Japan let us have a conversation face to face.

    I don’t believe voter fraud is as bad as others make it out to be. The Dems say it is awful when they lose. Go back and read what they said about Florida in 2000. I also know that a number of people were tried and found guilty of some act of either fraud or intimidation.

    Don’t be stupid. The Democrats love to put in place systems that are ripe for abuse. Look at their opposition to ID, their support for early voting in any precinct. It is all ripe for fraud, but it helps them win. Before you ask for links, look at Maryland. They are trying to set up such a system despite the fact that it was shot down by the courts.

    Patsy my ass. Trolls like you have no idea.

  6. Billy Joe says:

    Link demonstrating ACVR is a front group (follow the links to confirm them). It’s also an interesting read:

    http://www.pfaw.org/pfaw/general/default.aspx?oid=21015&print=yes

    Note that this includes a link to an article at the American Center for Voter Rights possibly addressing the Maryland issue you refer to above but, oops! The American Center For Voter Rights no longer exists! So any information you can provide to back up your claim about Maryland would be appreciated.

    If by duping major media, you’re referring to right-wing mouthpieces, they were either duped or they were complicit. It doesn’t get much simpler than that and if I can discover the ACVR is bogus in 5 minutes, these media organizations you refer to aren’t very good, are they? I tried mailing the author of the article you referred to above, too, and haven’t received a reply.

    Democrats were complaining about ELECTION fraud (purguing voter rolls of legitimate voters) not VOTER fraud. You can read a very revealing example of election fraud (don’t worry – it’s not that long), detailing the scheme of a Rove deputy to disenfranchise Black soliders and homeless people in Arkansas in ’04, right here:

    http://www.gregpalast.com/bushs-new-us-attorney-a-criminal/

    What do you think about Rove disenfranchising soldiers, soldier? Does that bother you at all or do you enjoy being a doormat?

    The democrats complaints in 2000 again had to do with thousands of legitmate voters being purged from the roles with the help of the Florida Secretary of State (and simultaneously also the head of Bush/Cheney campaign in Florida, if you can believe that, Katherine Harris). It’s well documented.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A99749-2001May30

    Does it not bother you at all that people are being disenfranchised? Personally I get a little upset when people are denied the right to vote. Frankly, it seems downright un-American to me. If someone does not get upset with it, I’d question their American patriotism.

    FWIW, I don’t believe voter fraud is as bad as people say it is, either. Evidently, the US Attorneys the Bush Admin had pursuing the matter couldn’t find much evidence of it either, which is why they were fired. Thus illustrating once again a typical Bush Admin pattern – decide the desired outcome in advance (hype & prosecute rampant voter fraud!) and find evidence, no matter how weak, to support the desired outcome. Iraq, anyone?.

    I think ELECTION fraud though is very real and something we should be vigilant about, whether it’s done by Republcians or Democrats, don’t you? That’s why I support paper ballots, etc. If our bank machines can provide receipts, is it too much to ask for electronic voting machines to produce them or is that somehow beyond our technological capability?

    I give you credit for having the balls to actually engage me. Normally right-wingers are so intellectually lazy that they would have cut-and-run by now. Usually by either banning me outright or by claiming that “they’ll be out for a few days” for some reason or another. I find them to be tough talkers, but by and large they can seldom defend their arguments and, unfortunately for them, blogs require the ability to deal with something that Hannity, Rush, O’Reilly, Coulter and the other Corporate Jet Conservatives have the luxury to avoid: Follow up questions. There’s a reason they Corporate Jet Conservatives hunker down in their bases at FOX News, etc. Because their arguments can be blown over like a house of cards if they are pressed to substanitate their assertions and the questioner can ask follow up questions.

    I won’t take over your blog, but I will drop in from time-to-time. Hopefully I can keep you honest ;-)

  7. Billy Joe says:

    Dude,

    Did you ban me? Just when I was trying to praise you for having the balls to try to debate me (unlike so many other right wing blowhards whose talking points fail them after, oh, 1 follow up question).

  8. Billy Joe says:

    Oh… maybe you didn’t ban me. This will be my last post for a while, answering your questions and hopefully asking you a couple more, easy ones:

    Link demonstrating ACVR is a front group (follow the links to confirm them). It’s also an interesting read:

    http://www.pfaw.org/pfaw/general/default.aspx?oid=21015&print=yes

    Note that this includes a link to an article at the American Center for Voter Rights possibly addressing the Maryland issue you refer to above but, oops! The American Center For Voter Rights no longer exists! So any information you can provide to back up your claim about Maryland would be appreciated.

    If by duping major media, you’re referring to right-wing mouthpieces like the one you link to above, they were either duped or they were complicit. It doesn’t get much simpler than that and if I can discover the ACVR is bogus in 5 minutes, these media organizations you refer to aren’t very good, are they? I tried mailing the author of the article you referred to above, too, and haven’t received a reply.

    Democrats were complaining about *ELECTION* fraud (purguing voter rolls of legitimate voters) not VOTER fraud. You can read a very revealing example of election fraud (don’t worry – it’s not that long), detailing the scheme of a Rove deputy to disenfranchise black soliders serving in the US military and homeless people from Arkansas in ’04, right here:

    http://www.gregpalast.com/bushs-new-us-attorney-a-criminal/

    What do you think about Rove disenfranchising soldiers, soldier? Does that bother you at all or do you enjoy being a doormat?

    The democrats complaints in 2000 again had to do with thousands of legitmate voters being purged from the rolls with the help of the Florida Secretary of State (and simultaneously also the head of Bush/Cheney campaign in Florida, if you can believe that, Katherine Harris). It’s well documented.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A99749-2001May30

    Does it not bother you at all that people are being disenfranchised? Personally I get a little upset when people are denied the right to vote. Frankly, it seems downright un-American to me. If someone does not get upset with it, I’d question their American patriotism.

    FWIW, like you, I don’t believe voter fraud is as bad as people say it is, either. Evidently, the US Attorneys the Bush Admin had pursuing the matter couldn’t find much evidence of it either, which is why they were fired. Thus illustrating once again a typical Bush Admin pattern – decide the desired outcome in advance (hype & prosecute rampant voter fraud no matter how much of a phantom menace it is!) and find evidence, no matter how weak, to support the desired outcome. Iraq, anyone?.

    I think ELECTION fraud though is very real and something we should be vigilant about, whether it’s done by Republcians or Democrats, don’t you? That’s why I support paper ballots, etc. If our bank machines can provide receipts, is it too much to ask for electronic voting machines to produce them or is that somehow beyond American technological capability?

    I give you credit for having the balls to actually engage me. Normally right-wingers are so intellectually lazy that they would have cut-and-run by now. Usually by either banning me outright or by claiming that “they’ll be out for a few days” for some reason or another. I find them to be tough talkers, but by and large they can seldom defend their arguments and, unfortunately for them, blogs require the ability to deal with something that Hannity, Rush, O’Reilly, Coulter and the other Corporate Jet Conservatives have the luxury to avoid: Follow up questions. There’s a reason the Corporate Jet Conservatives hunker down in their bases at FOX News, etc. Because their arguments can be blown over like a house of cards if they are pressed to substanitate their assertions and the questioner can ask follow up questions.

    I don’t mean to take over your blog (it seems to be just the two of us anyway), but I will drop in from time-to-time. Hopefully I can keep you honest ;-)

  9. Big Dog says:

    You had to be un spammed.

    You are not taking over my blog nor will what you do keep me honest because I am honest. What people fail to realize is that blogs are about people’s opinions and there are interpretations of what is written. Anyone who takes what is written in the MSM as unbiased or true is a fool.

    The link provided is another group’s assessment of what the ACVR is but whan you could get to their website you could read the bios. There were people who worked with Republican administrations and those who worked with Democratic administrations. There were people from both parties so they were not some right wing mouth piece.

    You can look up Maryland’s legislation if you so desire. I live here and I know what is going on so i don’t need to read it again.

    Conservatives do not mind engaging. As a matter of fact I know many of the people you have trolled. They have engaged you quite well. The problem is, you show up and say we don’t provide the right information or that we are biased and then you provide links to biased sites or you present your own biased views. You are just doing, from the left, what you accuse us of.

    I enjoy having you stop by but you should start your own blog. Then you can say what you want.

    For the record, I have never banned anyone. You get caught in the spam now and again, but not banned. So long as people follow the rules they don’t get banned.

  10. Billy Joe says:

    Fair enough, and thanks for sticking with this.

    Do you not think it’s despicable to try to deny people the right to vote thru disenfranchising them, as happened with US SOLDIERS from Arkansas?

    Do you not agree that the “major media organization” should have checked on the ACVR to determine it was just a front group? I mean, I found it in 5 minutes and that was the sum total of your “evidence” that “research shows Democrats” engage in more voter fraud. The major media organization to which you referred had this “evidence” only and now the group has disappeared from the face of the earth.

    Your argument was pretty weak and is now ever weaker since there is no other evidence that you provided. That’s not a matter of opinion, it’s a matter of fact until you prove otherwise. I’m not holding my breath, but I consider the matter settled until you decide to actually do some investigating to prove your assertion.

  11. Big Dog says:

    The ACVR existed, why they do not have a site now is unknown. Your assertion that they are a front group is idle speculation. I had the report and read it when it came out a few years ago. You found nothing except there is no longer a website. That does not negate the research and you know that. Look at the research and tell me the incidents did not happen.

    Weak or not, the argument is more founded than yours that it is not so. There is no evidence to the contrary except for opinions by partisan groups.

    To disenfranchise anyone is wrong. A lot of military were disenfranchised in FL and PA especially where a great number of ballots were not counted because they had no post mark (military does not pay postage from a war zone). They discounted the ballots even though PA had made some mistake and the deadline was not extended.

    I don’t care if a criminal is not allowed to vote, that is the law. If you want to vote, keep your records up to date. Voting is an individual responsibility and if you are not responsible enough to make sure you are able to vote maybe you should not be allowed to..

  12. Virginia says:

    Bigdog, keep up the good work. We do not believe the trolls, we know the truth comes from BD only.